Communism. Good or bad. What do you really know about Communism?

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

The irony is that this emancipation of labor only occurs in market democracies-- not under communism.

To Marx, the emancipation of labor was Communism.
His definition of Communism was people collaborating spontaneously together without requesting debts.
That's why Marx philosophy is still taught all around the world in universities.

That's all the problem between us together in our debate, you still do not want to undertand the definition of Communism.
You report here what I learned too from the propaganda of your Capitalist government. "Greed is good."

You claim that USSR was Communist, when they weren't. They were Socialist (state Capitalist).
They tried to reach Communism (sponsored by Capitalist banks), they failed.

Here I only asked: "How can we reach the Communist state."

Nothing else. I even added some anti-tyrannic points in the 1936 USSR Constitution after debating with you.

In comparison you indirectly let the door open to Trump, Bush Jr and his catastrophic war in Iraq with your arguments.
You agree to let the power to these people. Why?

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

The irony is that this emancipation of labor only occurs in market democracies-- not under communism.

To Marx, the emancipation of labor was Communism.
His definition of Communism was people collaborating spontaneously together without requesting debts.
That's why Marx philosophy is still taught all around the world in universities.

That's all the problem between us together in our debate, you still do not want to undertand the definition of Communism.
You report here what I learned too from the propaganda of your Capitalist government. "Greed is good."

You claim that USSR was Communist, when they weren't. They were Socialist (state Capitalist).
They tried to reach Communism (sponsored by Capitalist banks), they failed.

Here I only asked: "How can we reach the Communist state."

Nothing else. I even added some anti-tyrannic points in the 1936 USSR Constitution after debating with you.

In comparison you indirectly let the door open to Trump, Bush Jr and his catastrophic war in Iraq with your arguments.
You agree to let the power to these people. Why?

Originally Posted by deepsepia

The West achieved zero population growth without any compulsory abortions-- that's a whole lot more agreeable than the Chinese model.

Who spoke here to abort? Don't you know what mean anticonceptionnal tools?

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

Who spoke here to abort? Don't you know what mean anticonceptionnal tools?

When China set its "one child policy" -- they achieved that policy through compulsory abortions. Chinese monitored the menstrual periods of women-- a woman who already had one child and was identified to be pregnant was required to have an abortion.

That's life in your "workers' paradise"

Originally Posted by xyzde69

To Marx, the emancipation of labor was Communism.

No, to Marx the Communist Revolution was the destruction of bourgeois democracy and its replacement with a one party state.

Which ends up enslaving everyone.

He talked about the "emancipation of labor" -- it was a goal he had, in a vague way.

The political model he advocated, however, created much worse conditions for labor.

Tsar Alexander II of Russia freed the serfs, for example. In forcing agricultural labor onto collective farms -- an implementation of Marx's call for "industrial armies of agriculture" -- Stalin basically recreates serfdom.

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

And the more productive labor is, the less of it you need. That's why nations with high productivity invest much more capital per worker, and produce more per worker. An American or German worker produces much, much more output than a North Korean one.

An Western citizen burns 11 to 25 barrels per year.
One barrel = 12 years of human work.

Your economic model (CREATING NEW NEEDS) is unsunstainable and harmful.

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

An Western citizen burns 11 to 25 barrels per year.
One barrel = 12 years of human work.

Your economic model (CREATING NEW NEEDS) is unsunstainable and harmful.

Again, the only solution to that is more capital. We're dramatically reducing the energy intensitivity of production-- far less energy required to produce the same unit goods.

I certainly agree that a fossil fuel based economy is not environmentally sustainable-- but the answer to that isn't communism; communism obviously was intensely oriented to fossil fuels.

The only solutions are to get beyond what is essentially a 19th century technology.

As I've noted, where I live all our electricity is generated by dams and windpower-- we produce so much that we're big electricity exporters. That's obviously not possible everywhere, but we do have the technology to dramatically reduce fossil fuel consumption.

That's politically hard -- see the riots on the streets of Paris-- but it is possible.

[crinolynne]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

When China set its "one child policy" -- they achieved that policy through compulsory abortions. Chinese monitored the menstrual periods of women-- a woman who already had one child and was identified to be pregnant was required to have an abortion.

That's life in your "workers' paradise"

Not sure the moral high ground is with you...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steril...American_women

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by crinolynne

Not sure the moral high ground is with you...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steril...American_women

Not sure what your point is.

Sterilization occurred in many places-- reasonably recently among Australian aborigines.

But China was unique in monitoring the reproductive status of women, and forcing them to have abortions if they'd already had a child as a population control measure.

Advanced market democracies all reached zero population growth or very near it simply by improving quality of life: China achieved it through a national program of forced abortions.

That's different.

And its worse.

[Estreeter]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

Your economic model (CREATING NEW NEEDS) is unsunstainable and harmful.

Says who you and some dickheads books you read

Man has always created, he made stuff before there was money
Far leftist fools like yourself say anything to discredit .......... It's the last time I type this here as am sick if this thread, Your ideas are outdated, hypocritical, proven failures in past and current forms ............... yet you continue to dream, I enjoy watching you waste your time trying to convince us Only reason I come here is to laugh at your ideas, nothing more

[crinolynne]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

Not sure what your point is.

Sterilization occurred in many places-- reasonably recently among Australian aborigines.

But China was unique in monitoring the reproductive status of women, and forcing them to have abortions if they'd already had a child as a population control measure.

Advanced market democracies all reached zero population growth or very near it simply by improving quality of life: China achieved it through a national program of forced abortions.

That's different.

And its worse.

Worse? Let's see, sterilization people against their will based on race and eugenics is ok, but forced abortions when the individual did have a choice is not. IMHO, you're on the wrong side of the relative morality line.

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by crinolynne

Worse? Let's see, sterilization people against their will based on race and eugenics is ok, but forced abortions when the individual did have a choice is not. IMHO, you're on the wrong side of the relative morality line.

Racism and eugenics were terrible things-- that is its own discussion.

As a matter of policy, though, market democracies never looked to forced abortions to limit population size. Communist China did.

And more importantly, market democracies achieved zero population growth by improving the conditions of women. Keeping girls in school, giving them opportunities-- I prefer that as a means of keeping births in check to posting women's menstrual calendars on Chinese factor walls (which I saw personally, years ago in China).