Major League Baseball thread

[Arturo2nd]

Originally Posted by tsunamiSD

Well.... I'm glad for the three that got enough votes, but really disappointed in the writers who didn't vote for the 4th person who should have been elected in.


Tim Raines made it.

Jeff Bagwell made it.

Ivan Rodriguez made it.

But the second best closer of all time, Trevor Hoffman, again didn't make it, as he got 1% less votes than needed for induction.

I like this class (other than Bud Selig.) Bags and Raines are overdue.

Hoffman seem to be a lock to make it next year. I think he deserves to make it. Lee Smith drops off the ballot after this year. Smith and Hoffman are almost indistinguishable in terms of career value. Hoffman maintained his level of performance in the post season. Smith got knocked around in his few trips. Mariano Rivera's dominance in the post season is unfathomable. I do hope that the Veterans Committee will put Lee Smith in. Hoffman and Smith were two of the very few who could reliably close out games for over 15 years.

[tsunamiSD]

Besides being 2nd all time in Saves, he is also 2nd all time in save percentage. I know that the definition of a 'save' has changed over the years, so the actual number doesn't mean as much to some people, but the percentage should...

In addition, he has the 8th best WHIP for all pitchers with 1000 or more innings thrown, and 9th all time in strikeouts per 9 innings for all pitchers (Lee Smith is 20th and Mariano Rivera is 42nd.)

[Arturo2nd]

Originally Posted by tsunamiSD

Besides being 2nd all time in Saves, he is also 2nd all time in save percentage. I know that the definition of a 'save' has changed over the years, so the actual number doesn't mean as much to some people, but the percentage should...

In addition, he has the 8th best WHIP for all pitchers with 1000 or more innings thrown, and 9th all time in strikeouts per 9 innings for all pitchers (Lee Smith is 20th and Mariano Rivera is 42nd.)

I think the BBWAA is still struggling to identify the measures for relief pitchers. The best measure is being able to perform the job effectively for many years. Very few pitchers hold on to the job for more than a couple of seasons. Since Hoffman only missed by 5 votes this year, it is clear that the writers feel he belongs. I can't think of any relievers other than Hoffman and Rivera that closed games for one team for 15 years.

Mariano Rivera didn't try to strike people out until he had to. His specialty was getting 1 to 2 pitch ground outs with his cutter. Hoffman is amazing in that his primary pitch was a change up. Rivera will likely make it in his first season. With the new transparency rules, he might be the first unanimous choice.

It seems incredible that players like Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Tom Seaver, Hank Aaron, and Willie Mays could be left off some writers' ballots, but they were. Rogers Hornsby was elected on his fifth ballot appearance. You would think that Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, and Honus Wagner would be inducted without question, but none were unanimous selections. Many all time greats had to wait awhile in the 1940s and 50s because there was such a backlog of players that it proved impossible to elect anybody until the voting procedure was modified. Even later election was difficult. It is hard to fathom Warren Spahn with his 363 career wins only being named on 83% of the ballots.

[tygrkhat40]

Like much of life, baseball is awash in tradition, many of which are bullshit. When calculating batting average, an average of .3267 would be rounded up to .327. In Nellie Fox's last year of eligibility in 1985, he received 74.7% of the votes. But he wasn't elected because the BBWA wouldn't round up. It took the veteran's commitee to get Fox enshrined.

There are writers who feel that since players like Ruth, Cobb, Wagner and other greats weren't unanimously elected, no player should be. Then you have to ask, what writer kept Babe Ruth off his ballot, and why?

[Arturo2nd]

Originally Posted by tygrkhat40

Like much of life, baseball is awash in tradition, many of which are bullshit. When calculating batting average, an average of .3267 would be rounded up to .327. In Nellie Fox's last year of eligibility in 1985, he received 74.7% of the votes. But he wasn't elected because the BBWA wouldn't round up. It took the veteran's commitee to get Fox enshrined.

There are writers who feel that since players like Ruth, Cobb, Wagner and other greats weren't unanimously elected, no player should be. Then you have to ask, what writer kept Babe Ruth off his ballot, and why?

I believe that there was confusion of who they were supposed to be voting for, which is how it happened that Cy Young was not elected in the initial class. Cobb got 98% of the vote; Ruth and Wagner got 95%.

Here are some mind boggling facts: Ted Williams was left off 20 ballots, Stan Musial 23, Spahn 64, Mantle 43, Mays 23, Aaron 9, Bench 16. The weird thing is that writers are allowed to place 10 players on their ballots, but the typical ballot has 6 names on it in most elections. In addition to the three elected Vlad Guerrero, Trevor Hoffman, Bonds, Clemens, Lee Smith, and Mussina would have been on my ballott and I would have liked to have room for Curt Schilling, Manny Ramierez, Billy Wagner, Sammy Sosa, Jorge Posada, Edgar Martinez and Larry Walker.

[tsunamiSD]

Note - Ted Williams was left off some ballots because of feuds that some writers had with 'the Splendid Splinter' (who was not so splendid when dealing with a lot of members of the press.)

***

I've just found out that 9 voting members who had voted for Trevor Hoffman last year left him off this year. WTH??? Unless the intervening 12 months discloses that someone had been cheating during his career, why would you not vote for him? I'd like all 9 of them to go on public record with an explanation. The only valid excuse that I can think of is that so many new better qualified candidates popped up this year, that the voter had to drop someone to get down to 10.

edit- found one blog that has this:

Pat Caputo voted for Hoffman last year and did not this year. He added Larry Walker and voted for nine players.
Paul Daugherty removed Hoffman from his ballot this year (along with Mussina) and voted for four players.
Mike Vaccaro removed Hoffman from his ballot and added Billy Wagner. That one really baffles me.
Juan Vene removed Hoffman and only voted for four players.
George Willis removed Hoffman, Bonds, and Clemens and added Lee Smith, Bagwell, Mussina, and Edgar.

This makes things even less explainable....

[Arturo2nd]

Originally Posted by tsunamiSD

This makes things even less explainable....

Not really. It is obvious that we don't have the best and the brightest casting Hall of Fame ballots. Just read their prose and realize it has been cleaned up by editors and copy readers. You could contact them directly for explanations. It is suggested that you try to use as many one syllable words as possible.

[Navvet]

The first of the "juicers" got in.



I hope this doesn't open the door for more flagrant users like Bonds, Clemons, McGwire and A-Rod.

[Arturo2nd]

Originally Posted by navvet

The first of the "juicers" got in.



I hope this doesn't open the door for more flagrant users like Bonds, Clemons, McGwire and A-Rod.

There are already some juicers in by some accounts. "Greenies" were ubiquitous from at least 1960 and other stimulants were used dating back to the 1930s. Thus, the Hall is loaded with players who used illegal PEDs until they were explicitly banned by Major League Baseball. Steroids have been available since the 1930s and became widespread in professional football in the 1970s. It is extremely naive to believe that no Hall of Fame baseball player from the 1970s and 1980s resorted to their use. Please note that Congress did not regulate steroids until 1990. It was entirely legal to use them before then. They are still unregulated in some Latin American countries

https://sites.google.com/site/brettb...a/amphetamines

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabolic_steroid

Frankly, I do not have problems with players who cheat to improve performance and thus their teams' winning chances. It is very similar to actresses, porn stars, and strippers getting boob jobs to improve their incomes. Given that we now know that approximately a third of the players in the 1990s used steroids and nearly all used amphetamines, wishing to punish players who had already compiled Hall worthy careers is like life sentences for a couple of reefers. How many of us have resorted to Viagra or Cialis?

Admittedly, A-Rod is problematic as most of his career seems to have been enhanced, the writers will probably let him in. If they don't. the Veterans Committe will. If we don't know how many players were using steroids and which users are already in, how do we single A-Rod out? He has redeemed himself by showing that he is a true baseball nerd as a sportscaster. Here again we have a guy seeking to help his team win.

What I don't understand is folks wanting to induct Shoeless Joe Jackson and Pete Rose who sabotaged their teams' winning chances for their own personal gain.

[tsunamiSD]

What about these two? I think that they went on the 'juice' both because they thought that their skills were diminishing and that others would pass them because those others were thought to be using steroids. In their cases, they did it because of hubris, believing that no one else should be thought of as being as good or better than them. I'll admit that their records before they took the stuff were good enough to gain them entrance to the HOF, but they couldn't leave it at that - so now they are paying for that.