Current Politics in the United Kingdom

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by charliels531

So you and your friends can spit on migrants.

Loving your attitude to civilised discussion here. Of course, I am arguing in favour of controlled immigration and against wide open borders - ergo I obviously want to spit on immigrants.

Not impressive.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by charliels531

So you are eager to deny the EU a right you assert for Britain.

I doubt you will agree, but it looks to me as though you are eager to place blame for the failure of the British economy on Ireland. Britain thinks Ireland owes it favors. Of all the insane delusions of Brexit, that is the least sane.

I am neither eager nor unwilling; I merely observe. But I certainly don't single out Ireland for blame. She has been piggy in the middle of a bigger game and I am not pleased to see harm come to Ireland, not at all. I would however observe that the Irish government insisted that there would be a resolution of the open border requirement before any substantive talks on trade could begin and months were lost - yet the issue has not been resolved as we have seen.

Why didn't we talk about trade and about operating the open border requirement as closely linked and mutually dependent matters, as they so clearly are? That was the EU; and Mrs May being too weak to simply walk away and make clear that this was the only basis on which the EU and Britain could have a meaningful discussion. We are seeing the truth of this linkage all too clearly now. It has nothing to do with me wanting to blame anyone. It is what it is.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

Why didn't we talk about trade and about operating the open border requirement as closely linked and mutually dependent matters, as they so clearly are? That was the EU

Of course, they wanted the framework and definitions settled first. That's what professionals do. Why did you expect otherwise? Did you think they'd give you wiggle-room, so you can conflate issues with principles?

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by palo5

Of course, they wanted the framework and definitions settled first. That's what professionals do. Why did you expect otherwise? Did you think they'd give you wiggle-room, so you can conflate issues with principles?

Professionals would take a rational course of action, not skewed by paranoia - if that is what it was.The EU are most certainly not "professionals", though in fairness I cannot accuse Mrs May of having one single professional bone in her useless body.

My question would be how the FH is the "framework" going to be defined if there is no foundation? What would be the basis of the framework if you don't even have an idea of what the trade arrangement will look like? You cannot build a house on sand.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

Professionals would take a rational course of action, not skewed by paranoia

Which is exactly what the EU have done, and have been transparent throughout. Look here. It was presented years ago, and is the foundation:



No one's going to discuss trade details until you can agree the basics, but you're so divided, you can't agree among yourselves what you want. That's been the trouble all along -- you don't have a plan

Last year, May visited Merkel, who said the following happened.

Merkel: "You know the parameters: tell us what you want"
May: "What are you offering?"
Merkel: "You've known since 2016 what we're offering. What do you want?"
May: "What are you offering?"

You see? That's the difference between professionals and amateurs. One team is totally prepared and unified, and the other is not. It couldn't be clearer

[otokonomidori]

Originally Posted by palo5

Merkel: "You know the parameters: tell us what you want"
May: "What are you offering?"
Merkel: "You've known since 2016 what we're offering. What do you want?"
May: "What are you offering?"

In other words one side isn't negotiating, they're trying to dictate terms - I walk away from deals like that with my money still in my wallet.

[bacchus61]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

Well, since you have asked.

1. Britain will regain control of her borders if she properly departs from the EU. In order to come here and reside and work permanently people from EU countries will need to follow our domestic laws, as should always have been so.
2. If no acceptable deal is struck, then the hard border with Northern Ireland will be a matter for the Irish Republic to implement. Rest assured, the other EU countries will insist on this once leakage into the EU from the UK via the Irish Republic becomes a real problem. I would not have chosen that, but I am totally willing that this will happen. The EU has played this game, not the UK.
3. The economic case for self-determination has been made during our 40 odd years of membership. The ERM showed how unwise it is to follow interest rate policies tailored to the needs of the German economy instead of the British economy. Then there was Euro membership - can you remember how terrible a mistake it was that we didn't join the Euro in 2001? Then there was the bank crisis and quantitative easing - remember how disparaging the European Central Bank were about Britain doing that? They finally did it in 2015 and the EU economic recovery started there.

So what was the question again?

'Britain will regain her borders'
I can understand that total lack of control on immigration can be a problem and all of those economic migrants from France and Germany are a pain. That said, we do currently have full control of those migrating to the UK from outside of the EU and yet year on year these people way outnumber those from the EU. Also if you were to check from the ONS you will see that those migrants from Europe are vastly more likely to pay into the system than those from other countries. So the area that Britain (her? The French have masculine and feminine and whilst England is feminine the United Kingdom is masculine so it should be 'his borders') has control over is the area of, lets say, poorest controls.
'the hard border with Northern….'
That is contentious. I am sure you are fully aware of items such as The Good Friday Agreement and that the segregation of Ireland has serious consequences and a genuine threat to life. The people in Ireland are very passionate about how their country is apportioned and a return to those dreadful days is not one I would relish or even be prepared to pass blame onto another institution if the whole situation can be avoided. A bit of Trumpism there 'it's not me it's the democrats'.
What is this leakage into the EU from the Uk that you are referring to? Are you suggesting that the brits would try to escape via Ireland? Surely they could just hop in a migrants dinghy and paddle back to Calais.
The rest of it I did not understand nor have the willpower to investigate, one wine too many.

[bacchus61]

Originally Posted by Wendigo

No and that's a pretty pisspoor comment and sadly represents the views of many Remainers, it's that tired old 'voting Exit means you're a racist' mantra as promulgated by ignorant old twats like Vince Cable.

Just like we don't harp on about all Remain voters being rich. shyster, poncy. financial services yuppy types with no social conscience, 'it's all about me and making money and buying flash cars', many are .... but the vast majority aren't.

Reducing Remain or Leave to a crude stereotype helps no one. I voted leave and am happy to allow talented immigrants in, also those who may not have "skills" but who want to work and learn our language, and yes even a fair share of refugees but in a controlled fashion, however Britain should decide who comes in. Whoever comes in they have to agree to make an effort to learn our language and respect our customs, if you can't accept and agree with those very basic conditions then sorry but go find somewhere else to live.
In my small office we have workers from Africa, Asia, Italy, Greece even Peru, no doubt other nations too, we all work together with no issues about race, indeed my Italian friends voted to Leave the EU as I did, and my work scenario will be common in many parts of the country. We have no issues, if people can do the job I don't care where they come from but it should be up to the UK to decide who we invite in, not the EU.

I would hate to shatter your vision of how things like immigration work but those co-workers from Africa, Asia and even Peru did not come to the UK with an EU pass and I very much doubt if the British government sent them specific invites. They came and they stayed because there was work.
The UK has 1.4m unemployed yet 3m EU nationals. Those are 3m people who are registered into the system and pay tax etc.. I am shit with numbers but if 3m people pay, say on average, £1000 a year on tax that's £3bn to the economy.

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by bacchus61

I would hate to shatter your vision of how things like immigration work but those co-workers from Africa, Asia and even Peru did not come to the UK with an EU pass and I very much doubt if the British government sent them specific invites. They came and they stayed because there was work.
The UK has 1.4m unemployed yet 3m EU nationals. Those are 3m people who are registered into the system and pay tax etc.. I am shit with numbers but if 3m people pay, say on average, £1000 a year on tax that's £3bn to the economy.

Er thanks but that's not what I was getting at
I was merely responding to a stupid all Brexit voters are racist style post, I voted Leave and all I was saying is that I have no issue with living and working with other people from different nationalities, it was as simple as that.
As I said though it should be up to the UK who we accept or invite in (any better ?) and not to the EU.

[SoIGotTheGroov]

Originally Posted by MickyJ

That is the mistake that brexiteers keep making.

There is a framework for leaving the EU. The EU rules are well established and the single market is way, way bigger and more important than the UK one. The UK helped write all these rules and agreed to them fully and freely.

Now it's time to leave, and the UK is upset that the rules it wrote and agreed to are being applied. It wants a special deal, negotiated from the grond up, only only two years and based on the delusion that the UK was so important it could have its cake and eat it.

Now reality is slapping you in the face like a wet fish you get all indignant and upset about it, blaming the EU for being entirely fair and more than reasonable.

That's always been the UK's motto for sure: I write the rules, BUT plus special ones: Le Touquet Treaty for example ?



We french have been puzzled by Thatcher's policies for decades, the UK's not an island, it has borders in France that will not be erased by the brexit. We have been paying for UK's rebate for decades too, because Thatcher and all the following PM wanted to have their cake and eat it too.



Now that there are the Yellowjackets insurrections here plus terrorism back, traders do not want to leave the City, but some citizens still want to ask for french naturalisation application: better healthcare system, better retirement system, and we won't talk about the weather, the houses, the land...



It's always the same with UK people: imperialism, colonialism, but in others nations, not in theirs. They even stole our northern "la choule" game and named it rugby...