Communism. Good or bad. What do you really know about Communism?

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by otokonomidori

Here's some Russian peasantry enjoying the benefits of Marxism as they lie dead of starvation on the streets of Kharkiv in 1933.

You must be an agent of the CIA

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

One more time, I'll direct you to the reports of Venezuelan hospitals, universities and food banks, "ENCOVI". This is produced by the Central University of Venezuela, the Andrés Bello Catholic University and the Simón Bolívar University, along with the Fundación Bengoa food and nutrition group. They describe their methods and reporting.
https://www.ucab.edu.ve/investigacio...n/encovi-2017/

I just read the Alimentacion pdf.
It explains nothing about the political reasons that would impose starvation in the country.

They only filled a American Q&A about the quality and the quantity of the food they eat.

Do you get a link about the political causes that would explain why Maduro deliberately would like to starve his population?

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by otokonomidori

Here's some Russian peasantry enjoying the benefits of Marxism as they lie dead of starvation on the streets of Kharkiv in 1933.

Yep. The Ukrainian famine. According to several historians it was a technical mistake and other ones said it was a planified genocide.
Later Kroutchev told to Mao to be careful not making the same mistake, but Mao didn't listen to him and caused another famine.
But it was another era. In countries badly developped and industrialised.

In comparison between 1891-92 (40 years before), the Russian famine killed 2 millions Russians. Russia was not Stalinist.

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by Wendigo

You must be an agent of the CIA

Scottish blood, like Trump and I...

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

I just read the Alimentacion pdf.
It explains nothing about the political reasons that would impose starvation in the country.

They only filled a American Q&A about the quality and the quantity of the food they eat.

Not an "American Q&A" -- this is a Venezuelan survey, written and administered by Venezuelans. And it goes much further than you seem to have read, you will note that they identify just what food people have had access to, their weight and health and so on.

Originally Posted by xyzde69

Do you get a link about the political causes that would explain why Maduro deliberately would like to starve his population?

Sure. I can explain to you what happened. The short form: "State hegemony over food supply"

The longer version:
Venezuela, being an oil producer, always had a relatively small agricultural sector-- they imported a lot of food.

The Chavez and Maduro governments, carrying out Marxist theory:
a) collectivized domestic agriculture
--- surprise, just like when governments seize farmers' and everywhere else, production fell

and

b) they harassed and ultimately seized the property of the private companies that were importing food.

And what happened? Turns out that "revolutionary Marxists" don't actually know anything about how to distribute food. And so the companies that once imported food to Venezuela, transported it to stores and stocked the shelves-- they're now all effectively controlled by the government. . . . and the government can't actually do the job.

Here's a bit of what happened, this is an article from some years ago, when Chavez was still alive-- but it explains just why Venezuela is where it is:

Originally Posted by Food Fight

SOMETHING is rotten in the state of Venezuela: over 2,300 container-loads (and counting) of decomposing food, imported by the government last year and never distributed. The scandal is particularly embarrassing for President Hugo Chávez, since it comes amid growing shortages of basic foodstuffs in state-run grocery chains. But rather than rethink his statist food and agriculture policy, the president has declared “economic war” on the private sector.

The cargoes came to light last month when state intelligence agents were investigating the theft of powdered milk. The government admits that 30,000 tonnes of food are rotting in the port of Puerto Cabello alone. Opposition media put the total so far at over 75,000 tonnes, or around a fifth of what PDVAL, the state company responsible, imported in 2009. The company's former president, Luis Pulido, has been arrested for corruption and up to 20 other officials may suffer the same fate.

PDVAL is a subsidiary of Petróleos de Venezuela, the state oil giant. It was created in 2008, in an oblique recognition that another state-run food chain, Mercal, was failing to do its job. PDVAL's grandiose objective is to achieve “full food sovereignty” and to stamp out what Mr Chávez claims is “hoarding and smuggling” by the private sector. Since 2003, the government has imposed price controls on many foodstuffs. In that year the government defeated a business-led strike which came close to paralysing the economy. The private sector has since faced mounting harassment.

The results have been persistent shortages and soaring inflation: the price of food and drink rose by 21% in the first five months of 2010, according to the Central Bank. Elías Jaua, the vice-president, this week blamed inflation on “speculators [linked to] political interests seeking destabilisation as part of a campaign strategy”, before a legislative election in September.

Basic goods are scarcer in Mercal and PDVAL shops than in private supermarkets, according to a survey by Datanálisis, a polling company. But the government is stepping up expropriations of farms, food manufacturers and distributors, in a bid to achieve what it calls state “hegemony” over the food supply. On June 7th it announced the takeover of 18 more food companies accused of violating regulations.

https://www.economist.com/node/16326418

So its pretty simple: the State took over the food import and distribution industry and, to no one's surprise, isn't able to run it.

[Roubignol]

They filled an American Q&A.

If you follow the link written on the pdf you arrive there: https://www.ers.usda.gov/media/8282/short2012.pdf

A USDA Q&A.

I'd like to know which Marxist theories described how to starve its population?

We have to ask our friend Brecht.
I'm not that expert about Marxism.

Personnaly I'd see the Venezuelian problems as pure consequences of liberalism, that never developped the structure of a third world country during 80 years and today does not propose to help a starving population, but to invade the country and finance a revolution.
When the people kicked out the invaders and gave the power to a soldier, the soldier only was... a soldier.

That has nothing to do with Marxism.

Marxism is : free public education, equality of rights between men and women, no private property or inherited wealth, steeply graduated income tax, centralised control of the banking, communication, and transport industries.

It was not the case in liberalism.
Before Marxism, poor children had to work and had no education, women had not the same rights as men,

Today liberalism still promote inherited private properties that spoile areas to the people, banking are private and create fake debts, working poors are legions and greed good, etc...

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

I'd like to know which Marxist theories described how to starve its population?

Collectivism. The State takes over the production and distribution of food, and -- hey presto-- you get a famine. Happens over and over again.

You see, here's the rub: some commissar forces farmers off their land onto a collective farm, and what happens: food production collapses.

Some commissar takes over the distribution of food, and what happens? It doesn't get distributed.

This experiment has been repeated over and over. The only thing left that's surprising is that some folks aren't aware of it.

That's what's happening to Venezuela today. I might note that every time there's a famine in a country run by Marxists, they ponder the question "should we let people grow more food for themselves, and sell it on private markets?"

Because that's the only way to get an adequate food supply. "State Hegemony of the Food Supply" leads to famine.

This was one of Fidel's most consistent battles in Cuba:

Originally Posted by Castro Ends Farmers` Markets

Fidel Castro has killed Cuba`s six-year experiment with private farmers`markets.

In a speech reported by the state radio, the Cuban president said the free markets were ``a source of enrichment for neo-capitalists and neo-bourgeois (which) will pass without glory, leaving behind a great lesson, many damages and millionaires.``

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1986-05-21/news/8602060631_1_higher-prices-free-sale-produce

and this policy, no surprise, produced this result

Originally Posted by Millions of Cubans facing starvation: Hunger is fuelling an exodus of desperate refugees

YOU WON'T see many cats prowling the twisting, unlit streets of old Havana these days. Strays or pets, most have fallen victim to a people living on the edge of starvation.
Under ever-tighter rationing since the collapse of the Soviet bloc, the poorest of Cubans began devouring the cat population last year. Even the tiny allowance of meat in their ration books is rarely available after they queue for hours at state warehouses.

'Cats were among the first to go since they're said to taste okay. I had my three robbed from my house in January,' said Sylvia, a 32-year- old unmarried mother who lives in the Playa district and works as an administrator in a state hospital.

'I've heard of people eating dogs, those little ones that have no fur, but I think that's the exception. They say dog meat tastes bad and you still see plenty of stray dogs. Most people have drawn the line there. So far.'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/millions-of-cubans-facing-starvation-hunger-is-fuelling-an-exodus-of-desperate-refugees-writes-phil-1417691.html

and faced with another famine, guess what those Marxists did?

Originally Posted by In Farmers Market, A Free Market Rises In Cuba

Cuba has no shortage of fertile farmland, but the country spends $1.5 billion a year importing about 70 percent of its food.

The communist government's chronic struggle to get farmers to produce more is forcing authorities to grudgingly accept a greater role for market principles and the profit motive.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2012/12/07/166676952/in-farmers-market-a-free-market-rises-in-cuba

. . .that's right, one more time they go back to the market, which is provably the only way to deliver adequate food supplies over time.

[Wendigo]

As for life in the DDR being so great how come so many were shot and killed at the Berlin Wall if all they were doing was trying to travel to West Berlin to bring the good news of how fantastic their lives were
A bureaucracy that was out of control where jumped up little pricks became power crazed mini-fuhrers if you did not have the right forms with you

https://thevieweast.wordpress.com/20...fe-in-the-gdr/
https://www.hdg.de/en/museum-in-der-...fe-in-the-gdr/

"How did the country function in which for 40 years a bread roll cost 5 pfennigs, but there were as good as no bananas? The country that built the highest TV tower in Germany, but did not provide enough housing to go around? That produced beautiful fairy-tale films, but forced critical artists into exile?"

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-707570.html

Claiming the DDR (Democratic Republic ) was some sort of Communist Nirvana is total bollocks.

If it was such a fantastic place to live how come ordinary people were shot trying to leave.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...he_Berlin_Wall

Why were the people subject to controls as to what they could read or watch?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censor...n_East_Germany

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

Collectivism. The State takes over the production and distribution of food, and -- hey presto-- you get a famine. Happens over and over again.

You see, here's the rub: some commissar forces farmers off their land onto a collective farm, and what happens: food production collapses.

Collectivism has nothing to do famine.

That's a biaised argument.
Famine occured during transition or because of the international division of work.
A lot of capitalist countries today are still unable to feed their own population.
They import a lot of food. Everything is ok for them, as long as they follow the rules imposed by capitalism.

You always point the consequences of defying the capitalism dictatorship.

Originally Posted by Wendigo

If it was such a fantastic place to live how come ordinary people were shot trying to leave.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...he_Berlin_Wall

Why were the people subject to controls as to what they could read or watch?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censor...n_East_Germany

That's a point on which, I totally agree.
Honestly speaking, I never understood why these "Communist" countries didn't let their people immigrating to capitalist ones.
It would have been fair to let greedy people going to the lands of greed.

But I hope you will agree that the US imperialism has not to be defended too.

That's the point of view of Professor Jacquard.
Why Communist countries and Capitalist ones do not collaborate together.

If you want to live in Collectivism, you go to a collectivist country, if you want to live in a Capitalist one, you can immigrate there.
But there always were blocus from both parts.

That's one more time the demonstration that a real free world as defined by the Anarchists never existed.

[bowlinggreen]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

Collectivism has nothing to do famine.

That's a biaised argument.
Famine occured during transition or because of the international division of work.
A lot of capitalist countries today are still unable to feed their own population.
They import a lot of food. Everything is ok for them, as long as they follow the rules imposed by capitalism.

You always point the consequences of defying the capitalism dictatorship.

That's a pretty silly argument.

When Stalin was doing forced collectivization, he sent soldiers to take food away from the peasants and kulaks by force, because they resisted being integrated into the new collectivist Soviet economy. Communism feared the idea of independent farmers retaining land, and their surpluses, and engaging in capitalist behavior by selling those surpluses for what they could get. As a result, millions starved.

That's a pretty clear example of an ideology protecting itself by harming the very people it was supposed to make "equal".

I also have to point out that even once they stabilized collectivism, production was always lower than what it had been when the peasants were free to produce and sell as they pleased. This pretty much went on until the end of the Soviet Union. They imported a lot of grain from us and others over the years because of the inefficiency of their collective farm system.

See this chart starting in the 1960s:

https://www.indexmundi.com/agricultu...&graph=imports

And this in a Socialist empire that possessed the richest wheat-growing territory in the world, i.e. the Ukraine.

I don't think Stalin was much interested in international trade and imports at all, either, when he was running the show, he wanted self-sufficiency. I wonder how well the average Soviet citizen ate while he was alive? My guess would be, not very well.

We put a grain embargo on them in 1980, for invading Afghanistan, this really didn't do much good, actually, it hurt our own farmers more than anyone else, I remember their were protests about it. This was about the time the big farm/land crisis in our country was getting set to ramp up into disaster for the family farmer.