Current Politics in the United Kingdom

[Dr Pepper]

Originally Posted by bloke57

Well yes they did. But that money is spent - not hidden under a mattress somewhere. So you need people capable of generating a national income today to pay the costs incurred today.

Government expenditure is all current spending, not interest on investment.

No argument from me there in the generic sense-but the whole point there is an ongoing social contract-people pay taxes in various forms (and the nature is unimportant) in order to fund government expenditure on all the myriad of services and infrastructure we associate with modern societies...those paying into the system at any particular time (ie during their working life) are only utilising a small proportion of those services and facilities per capita compared to those at either end of the non contributing scale-children and adolescent and the elderly.
The principal has always been that the current working generation effectively pays the costs of the preceding and succeeding generation as they move through the system-and in fact it can't operate in any other way!

In detail though I beg to differ-any government running a surplus is not spending on current expenditure. These don't happen that often but good government and a bit of luck can sometimes yield it-I'm fortunate that in NZ we manage to do this once or twice a decade-and we do have a national superannuation fund that does invest for the future-and remarkably efficiently. That does not prevent prudent people from saving and investing in private superannuation scheme for their own retirement as state pensions are invariably set to fairly parsimonious levels.

[Dr Pepper]

Originally Posted by palo5

You can try kidding yourself otherwise, but that's exactly the way it works. To prove the point, if people don't make enough kids to pay your pension & entitlements, you won't get what you were expecting, and that's a fact

It won't help whining that "things aren't fair". Lots of things aren't fair -- might as well live with it because it's never going to change

You have an unenviable ability to misunderstand and mis-state the argument. People without children have no need for kindergartens, primary schools, secondary schools, childrens hospitals etc etc etc-that their taxes pay for-that means exactly that they are subsiding-by their taxes-those who do have children. And in many countries there are tax breaks and/or allowances for families-also generated by the taxes of childless taxpayers-so in a sense people like me are subsidising the breeders twice over. I feel no guilt whatsoever-in due course-accepting some return from the state when I retire from the workforce.

[Devius]

The United Kingdom's exit from the European Union will be so damaging that it will try to rejoin in 20 years, Scotland's Brexit minister said on Thursday.

Michael Russell told a Scottish parliamentary committee there was a high chance that Brexit talks would fail soon and that the bill for Brexit was the biggest stumbling block.

"I actually think in 20 years time, if the UK does come out, in 20 years time the UK will be in the process of trying to be back in and it will have lost 20 years of influence and progress," said Michael Russell, whose formal title is Minister for UK Negotiations on Scotland's Place in Europe.

"It is that foolish."

Details:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-br...-idUSKBN18722Z

I cannot think of anything more calamitous than a future UK government seeking to rejion the EU.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by Devius

The United Kingdom's exit from the European Union will be so damaging that it will try to rejoin in 20 years, Scotland's Brexit minister said on Thursday.

Michael Russell told a Scottish parliamentary committee there was a high chance that Brexit talks would fail soon and that the bill for Brexit was the biggest stumbling block.

"I actually think in 20 years time, if the UK does come out, in 20 years time the UK will be in the process of trying to be back in and it will have lost 20 years of influence and progress," said Michael Russell, whose formal title is Minister for UK Negotiations on Scotland's Place in Europe.

"It is that foolish."

Details:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-br...-idUSKBN18722Z

I cannot think of anything more calamitous than a future UK government seeking to rejion the EU.

Mr Russell is hardly an unbiased observer. I notice a couple of elipses in the basic argument, one of which is that it assumes that the EU will still exist 20 years from now. The chances are that it will, but I wouldnt take that for granted.

The second is that he assumes that the decision is temporary and that a future government can reverse it. There are obstacles to reversing this decision.

1. Unless the fundimentals are changed, the same bedrock of anti-EU feeling will still exist and any future British government will take a grave political risk. It will be much harder than it was for Edward Heath, who did it before the British has woken up and realised the implications.
2. There are now 27 other EU nations, all of whom would need to give consent. I doubt very much that this would ever happen under any circumstances. For example, Spain wants us to cede Gibraltar and will unquestionably seize such an opportunity to demand this of us. We have burned our bridges, let no one doubt this. I cannot see how re-applying will even be possible.

But what he also assumes is that Britain is unviable outside the EU. This is a strange idea, given that Britain has existed for a long time before the EU was ever dreamed of.


It is pretty much the usual whinging, bleating negative shit we have been hearing from the SNP for a long time. No matter what the subject matter is, the SNP will have some mean spirited and carping rubbish to say. They are the political equivalent of tinitis, or static on the radio waves.

[Puhbear69]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

[...]

1. Unless the fundimentals are changed, the same bedrock of anti-EU feeling will still exist and any future British government will take a grave political risk. It will be much harder than it was for Edward Heath, who did it before the British has woken up and realised the implications.
2. There are now 27 other EU nations, all of whom would need to give consent. I doubt very much that this would ever happen under any circumstances. For example, Spain wants us to cede Gibraltar and will unquestionably seize such an opportunity to demand this of us. We have burned our bridges, let no one doubt this. I cannot see how re-applying will even be possible.

[...].

I cannot look into what happens in the future.

But: this consents politics MUST be given up soon or later by the EU. Maybe in steps form 2/3 to a 1/2 majority. That's already known by the the EU members too. Only somebody needs to make enough pressure. The sooner the EU - Commission (a non - democratic institution) is deprived of power in favour to the EU - parliament (a democratic institution), the better.

Spain will have nothing to to say in that matter of Gibraltar. Shifting boundaries is as unpopular as it could be in the EU ... except the citizens of Gibraltar wanting the reunion with Spain (I don't know, but I believe they wouldn’t).
Have a look to that small stripe in the south of Cyprus, that' British territory too.

But so far I would say too: the result of to quit the EU the worst of the British since "Karl the Naked".

What will not work: a special status for Northern Ireland, Gibraltar ect.. Britain will have to accept those borders too.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by Puhbear69

I cannot look into what happens in the future.

But: this consents politics MUST be given up soon or later by the EU. Maybe in steps form 2/3 to a 1/2 majority. That's already known by the the EU members too. Only somebody needs to make enough pressure. The sooner the EU - Commission (a non - democratic institution) is deprived of power in favour to the EU - parliament (a democratic institution), the better.

Spain will have nothing to to say in that matter of Gibraltar. Shifting boundaries is as unpopular as it could be in the EU ... except the citizens of Gibraltar wanting the reunion with Spain (I don't know, but I believe they wouldn’t).
Have a look to that small stripe in the south of Cyprus, that' British territory too.

But so far I would say too: the result of to quit the EU the worst of the British since "Karl the Naked".

What will not work: a special status for Northern Ireland, Gibraltar ect.. Britain will have to accept those borders too.

These are good points, Puhbear, but the EU is extremely resistant to internal and organic progress or reform.

Part of the issue is that others as well as Britain are worried about their national sovereignty. Qualified Majority Voting is a direct infringement on national sovereignty because it confers on other nations the right to collude and impose a decision on the minority against the will of the governments in the minority bloc. There will still be resistance to the principle because it is federalist in character and Britain may have been the leader, but she was not the only anti-federalist country in the club.

[Puhbear69]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

These are good points, Puhbear, but the EU is extremely resistant to internal and organic progress or reform.

Part of the issue is that others as well as Britain are worried about their national sovereignty. Qualified Majority Voting is a direct infringement on national sovereignty because it confers on other nations the right to collude and impose a decision on the minority against the will of the governments in the minority bloc. There will still be resistance to the principle because it is federalist in character and Britain may have been the leader, but she was not the only anti-federalist country in the club.

This process can't being done without tears, I'm aware of that. And it isn't done next week or so.

But look: a lot of EU countries are being drip feed. So it's with Spain, Greek, Portugal, Cyprus or Ireland, since their banks crashed. And "who is paying the piper, calls the tune" at least. The EU countries wouldn’t risk to crash their economies.

I predict (or bet) at first will be a synchronizing of the tax situations. Keyword "letterbox companies" or as good as no company tax is a "no go !. The damage for the others is immense.

Add: Or the invention in human rights (press rights) in some of the EU - members. It's welcome, if you are asking me!

[Oswald]

68% of UK voters are now pro-Brexit. You won't find this news in the globalist, cultural-Marxist MSM.

http://www.westmonster.com/68-are-now-pro-brexit/

[Puhbear69]

Originally Posted by Oswald

68% of UK voters are now pro-Brexit. You won't find this news in the globalist, cultural-Marxist MSM.

http://www.westmonster.com/68-are-now-pro-brexit/

There are no explains, no hard facts, no evidence, no further data, no how much people have been interviewed !

It's just a assertion of the quality: "The Earth is a disk" or "Or the Moon - landing 1969 was an enactment of Hollywood" .

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by Puhbear69

There are no explains, no hard facts, no evidence, no further data, no how much people have been interviewed !

It's just a assertion of the quality: "The Earth is a disk" or "Or the Moon - landing 1969 was an enactment of Hollywood" .

But I have to say Puh that the Remain side and the EU (especially its appointed spokespeople) have handled the aftermath of the 23 June 2016 referendum very foolishly, in ways designed to provoke and antagonise both the firm Brexiteers and the middle ground, people who voted either Leave or Remain with a lot of reservations and doubts. I felt grave doubts when I voted Leave, but would have felt just as conflicted and dubious had I voted Remain. I found it the hardest decision I have ever made at a ballot box.

Were this question to be put to me a second time, and with what I now know, I would now vote Leave instantly and with deep conviction. I have seen from the Remainers (such as Kenneth Clark MP, the whole Scottish Nationalist Party, most of the metro-sexual Labour fakers, and of course the truly egregious Lib-Dems) enough to convince me that these people are not fit for dogs to piss on. I have seen the sneaking and malicious activities of the EU representatives. I have noted the direct attack on British sovereignty in Gibraltar, a really disgraceful and abusive action. This is a community which we should never have joined because it has shown ino friendship.

I am afraid the die is cast and we must all follow our respective stars. There can still be friendship and cooperation if the EU leaders decide to reconsider Clause 24. But as for Britain rejoining or voting in a referendum to reverse the original choice, that will never happen, not even if the door to re-join should be opened, which it never will. Clause 24 has hardened my resolve a great deal and I suspect I am not the only one here who feels the affront on that score.