Register on the forum now to remove ALL ads + popups + get access to tons of hidden content for members only!
vintage erotica forum vintage erotica forum vintage erotica forum
vintage erotica forum

Go Back   Vintage Erotica Forums > Discussion & Talk Forum > General Discussion & News

Follow Vintage Erotica Forum on Twitter
Best Porn Sites Meet Our Girls Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices
General Discussion & News Want to speak your mind about something ... do it here.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-14-2018, 02:46 AM   #361
deepsepia
Vintage Member
 
deepsepia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Upper left corner
Posts: 3,102
Thanks: 13,057
Thanked 26,442 Times in 3,080 Posts
deepsepia 100000+deepsepia 100000+deepsepia 100000+deepsepia 100000+deepsepia 100000+deepsepia 100000+deepsepia 100000+deepsepia 100000+deepsepia 100000+deepsepia 100000+deepsepia 100000+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by xyzde69 View Post
Marxism was quoted several times by the Dala´ Lama as an excellent "economico-philosophy".

People who don't like Marxism are weak stooges or greedy and lazy elites.
Argument ad hominem is not strong.

There are plenty of folks who dislike Marxism because they observe that its vague on something important: freedom. Marxists are cheerfully blasÚ about "the dictatorship of the proletariat" -- me, I'm not at all cheerful about any dictatorship.

We live in a time when governments of many different political stripes, when unrestrained, have demonstrated their efficiency at filling mass graves; communists just as enthusiastically as fascists.

I'm not sure whether I'm a "lazy elite" or a "weak stooge" in your formulation-- but my humble politics are "to the maximum extent possible people should be left alone to live their lives as they please, and the powers of the State should be constrained so that you don't end up with a bullet in the back of the head and a body rolled in a ditch"

"Communists" have been all too quick to discard democracy and rule of law as inconvenient . . . well, sign this lazy stooge up for that inconvenience.
deepsepia is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to deepsepia For This Useful Post:
Old 02-14-2018, 04:58 AM   #362
Brian249x
Veteran Member
 
Brian249x's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Oakland, California, United States. I have a beautful view of the BART tracks and I-980
Posts: 2,931
Thanks: 29,415
Thanked 40,279 Times in 2,906 Posts
Brian249x 175000+Brian249x 175000+Brian249x 175000+Brian249x 175000+Brian249x 175000+Brian249x 175000+Brian249x 175000+Brian249x 175000+Brian249x 175000+Brian249x 175000+Brian249x 175000+
Default

Marx and Engels operated under the assumption that absent the exploitive aristocrats and bourgeoisie folks would live in harmony, freely sharing the goodies, and only taking what they needed for survival. We have discovered that human beings do not operate that way. Envy, greed, lust, gluttony, anger, pride, and laziness affect all of us to one degree or another. Somehow, the most ruthless and flawed characters wind up in power with humans. It does not seem to matter much what name we give to societies supposed social arrangement or what the official political philosophy is supposed to be.
__________________
Maybe today I can go the whole day without spilling a drink on my shirt.
Brian249x is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Brian249x For This Useful Post:
Old 02-14-2018, 05:03 AM   #363
Nobody1
Veteran Member
 
Nobody1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,472
Thanks: 13,129
Thanked 14,004 Times in 1,479 Posts
Nobody1 50000+Nobody1 50000+Nobody1 50000+Nobody1 50000+Nobody1 50000+Nobody1 50000+Nobody1 50000+Nobody1 50000+Nobody1 50000+Nobody1 50000+Nobody1 50000+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by deepsepia View Post
Argument ad hominem is not strong.

There are plenty of folks who dislike Marxism because they observe that its vague on something important: freedom. Marxists are cheerfully blasÚ about "the dictatorship of the proletariat"
That is, of course, just part of the truth. The whole truth is that it has never been tried within democratic conditions. We therefore have no practical experience that could be related in this context. Any comparisons in this respect are exclusively of a speculative nature.

Btw, there is absolutely no contradiction between a democracy and a socialist economy based on Marxist theory. Actually, one is just the confirmation of the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deepsepia View Post
-- me, I'm not at all cheerful about any dictatorship.
Well, that is exactly what you are. No offense.

'Americans think they live in a democracy. But their workplaces are small tyrannies.'

https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/201...markets-unions
Nobody1 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Nobody1 For This Useful Post:
Old 02-14-2018, 06:14 AM   #364
deepsepia
Vintage Member
 
deepsepia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Upper left corner
Posts: 3,102
Thanks: 13,057
Thanked 26,442 Times in 3,080 Posts
deepsepia 100000+deepsepia 100000+deepsepia 100000+deepsepia 100000+deepsepia 100000+deepsepia 100000+deepsepia 100000+deepsepia 100000+deepsepia 100000+deepsepia 100000+deepsepia 100000+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
That is, of course, just part of the truth. The whole truth is that it has never been tried within democratic conditions.
The problem is that Marxism in practice is contemptuous of democracy-- they have no use for it. "Democratic conditions" presume that you want rule of law. Marxists are plain enough that class struggle, rather than rule of law, is their aim.

No reason to expect that folks will achieve what they don't seek.

Democratic Socialists/Social democrats, by contrast seek some of the goals of the Marxists, but with a respect for rule of law and democratic institutions of the State. Its not an accident that Sweden ended up a more civilized place than Cambodia or Albania-- they sought different things. You can't achieve what you don't want in the first place. Marxists have had plenty of opportunities to support democracy-- its plain enough that they simply don't want it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
Well, that is exactly what you are. No offense.

'Americans think they live in a democracy. But their workplaces are small tyrannies.'
This is a non sequitur, "whataboutery". The US has its failings -- arguably never moreso than today in my lifetime-- but at an explicit level we're clear enough about what we seek-- and that's the rule of laws, not men, classes or parties.

Marxists don't seek that, don't want that. The State is subordinate to the Party, which answers to . . . well, to no one.

So Marxism in practice is intrinsically hostile to rule of law, separation of powers and constitutional government; not because of some defect, but because that's the design. Somehow, magically the Party will represent the will of the workers, and equally magically the organs of the State will carry out their just desires.

Ah, but what if they don't?

Well then, comrade, then its time to find out just who's in charge of the Secret Police, because that's how you'll find out what "the law" is.

Last edited by deepsepia; 02-14-2018 at 07:25 AM..
deepsepia is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to deepsepia For This Useful Post:
Old 02-14-2018, 09:03 AM   #365
xyzde69
Veteran Member
 
xyzde69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Mice Planet
Posts: 1,576
Thanks: 7,292
Thanked 11,228 Times in 1,567 Posts
xyzde69 50000+xyzde69 50000+xyzde69 50000+xyzde69 50000+xyzde69 50000+xyzde69 50000+xyzde69 50000+xyzde69 50000+xyzde69 50000+xyzde69 50000+xyzde69 50000+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by deepsepia View Post
The problem is that Marxism in practice is contemptuous of democracy-- they have no use for it. "Democratic conditions" presume that you want rule of law. Marxists are plain enough that class struggle, rather than rule of law, is their aim.

No reason to expect that folks will achieve what they don't seek.

Democratic Socialists/Social democrats, by contrast seek some of the goals of the Marxists, but with a respect for rule of law and democratic institutions of the State. Its not an accident that Sweden ended up a more civilized place than Cambodia or Albania-- they sought different things. You can't achieve what you don't want in the first place. Marxists have had plenty of opportunities to support democracy-- its plain enough that they simply don't want it.




This is a non sequitur, "whataboutery". The US has its failings -- arguably never moreso than today in my lifetime-- but at an explicit level we're clear enough about what we seek-- and that's the rule of laws, not men, classes or parties.

Marxists don't seek that, don't want that. The State is subordinate to the Party, which answers to . . . well, to no one.

So Marxism in practice is intrinsically hostile to rule of law, separation of powers and constitutional government; not because of some defect, but because that's the design. Somehow, magically the Party will represent the will of the workers, and equally magically the organs of the State will carry out their just desires.

Ah, but what if they don't?

Well then, comrade, then its time to find out just who's in charge of the Secret Police, because that's how you'll find out what "the law" is.
You put all the Marxists in the same bags and that's utterly wrong.

Sadly Marxism is an unachieved theory.
Marx never was really clear how to politically or socially resolve the problems of the people inside a community.

If you read Kropotkin essay "Communism and Anarchism", he analysed why politically Communism would failed.

That's probably why there were these different forms of brutal or unachieved Communisms and even before, there was the separation between Marx and Bakounin, who decided to follow the Anarcho-Marxism instead of a Communo-Marxism.

After reading the "Communist Manifesto", it's quite clear that Marx was impressed by several aspects of the efficiency generated by the Capitalism, but he denounced the terrible effects on the social life, on the environment, on the culture, on the quality of life of the workers. Through the unceasing reinjection of money into the circuit in the way to always makes more benefit, capitalism will push a large part of the population into poverty and change them as robots.
If you take the time of reading the chapters of the Kapital dedicated to the alienation, that's a remarkable psychological work: Workers and people become slaves of their products, of their properties, ...

How do we look at American workers in Europe?
For us, the American worker is almost like a Japanese one.
Maybe that's a caricature, but that's what we learned about him.

The American worker only get one week holiday per year.
He's afraid to go on holiday because he could be fired when he come back.
He's the slave of his boss, who can fire him in the minute.
He's totally addicted to make money, his only dream is to become... rich.

It even was depicted in several TV series like Mad Men, Boardwalk empire or Desesperate Housewife....

The American icons are businessmen, managers, economists, billionaires but rarely philosophers, writers...

That's very very far from freedom.

The American way of life of lower class employees seems to be based on very strong submissions to the market and the goodwill of your managers.

So maybe that's different from one state to another. That's difficult for us, European, to know, because differences between your states are less clear than in Europe where the languages and during decades the currencies were totally different.

As European people, we see your country as a country that is based on huge unfair social differences, with a very strong poverty that our ancesters tried to reduce as much as possible in Europe. We see USA as a place with a huge criminality, where obesity became normal but that is for us a symptom of depression and social misery, etc...

That's all bad points that were stigmatised by Karl Marx about the dangers of Capitalism.

Das Kapital is not only a book written from the mind of Marx, it's a book based on analysis made by a lot of humanists or economists who wrote point of views before Marx himself.
He quoted at least more than 20 different authors and was very impressed by the relevance of their observations.

I'm sad to say, but the industrial and financial politics of the USA since the WWII is more negative for the future of the humanity than beneficial. Viciously the American administration tried to make his standard as a worldwide standard.
But for us American people are the folks that consume 5 planets per head.
Almost all the people in the world believes that American people (in its globality, not head by head) is the representation of pure ego´sm and will to destroy the world for its own benefit.
We never had this view about Soviets or Chinese until they began to contribute to the Capitalism.

Why are we speaking of American imperialism?

Last edited by xyzde69; 02-14-2018 at 01:44 PM..
xyzde69 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to xyzde69 For This Useful Post:
Old 02-14-2018, 09:15 AM   #366
xyzde69
Veteran Member
 
xyzde69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Mice Planet
Posts: 1,576
Thanks: 7,292
Thanked 11,228 Times in 1,567 Posts
xyzde69 50000+xyzde69 50000+xyzde69 50000+xyzde69 50000+xyzde69 50000+xyzde69 50000+xyzde69 50000+xyzde69 50000+xyzde69 50000+xyzde69 50000+xyzde69 50000+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
That is, of course, just part of the truth. The whole truth is that it has never been tried within democratic conditions. We therefore have no practical experience that could be related in this context. Any comparisons in this respect are exclusively of a speculative nature.

Btw, there is absolutely no contradiction between a democracy and a socialist economy based on Marxist theory. Actually, one is just the confirmation of the other.



Well, that is exactly what you are. No offense.

'Americans think they live in a democracy. But their workplaces are small tyrannies.'

https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/201...markets-unions
And we have to point that the USA always bombed populations or went into conflict with countries (apart China ), that wanted to live under a form of Communism.

I repeat here the sayings (that's not his real words, but I can search them if you want) of the French humanist genetician Albert Jacquard in his book (J'accuse l'Úconomie triomphante, I blame the triumphant economy.)

"Why USA didn't make business with Cuba instead to create troubles and then make an embargo? Cuba could have been a very good laboratory of Communism."
xyzde69 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to xyzde69 For This Useful Post:
Old 02-14-2018, 11:41 AM   #367
otokonomidori
緑の男
 
otokonomidori's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Glasgow, UK.
Posts: 5,518
Thanks: 29,682
Thanked 80,939 Times in 5,949 Posts
otokonomidori 350000+otokonomidori 350000+otokonomidori 350000+otokonomidori 350000+otokonomidori 350000+otokonomidori 350000+otokonomidori 350000+otokonomidori 350000+otokonomidori 350000+otokonomidori 350000+otokonomidori 350000+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by xyzde69 View Post
"Why USA didn't make business with Cuba instead to create troubles and then make an embargo? Cuba could have been a very good laboratory of Communism."
I always wondered why they didn't bomb it flat.
otokonomidori is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to otokonomidori For This Useful Post:
Old 02-14-2018, 01:27 PM   #368
xyzde69
Veteran Member
 
xyzde69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Mice Planet
Posts: 1,576
Thanks: 7,292
Thanked 11,228 Times in 1,567 Posts
xyzde69 50000+xyzde69 50000+xyzde69 50000+xyzde69 50000+xyzde69 50000+xyzde69 50000+xyzde69 50000+xyzde69 50000+xyzde69 50000+xyzde69 50000+xyzde69 50000+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by otokonomidori View Post
I always wondered why they didn't bomb it flat.
Because they needed an opponent to spread their fake notion of freedom to their stooges.
xyzde69 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to xyzde69 For This Useful Post:
Old 02-15-2018, 01:22 AM   #369
crinolynne
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 156
Thanks: 32
Thanked 984 Times in 150 Posts
crinolynne 2500+crinolynne 2500+crinolynne 2500+crinolynne 2500+crinolynne 2500+crinolynne 2500+crinolynne 2500+crinolynne 2500+crinolynne 2500+crinolynne 2500+crinolynne 2500+
Default

I'm not sure how to interject at this point in the perennial discussion, but...

Think of it as Darwin in action.

And 10 pts for the first person to identify who said that, which author, which novel and which character.
crinolynne is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to crinolynne For This Useful Post:
Old 02-16-2018, 06:37 PM   #370
otokonomidori
緑の男
 
otokonomidori's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Glasgow, UK.
Posts: 5,518
Thanks: 29,682
Thanked 80,939 Times in 5,949 Posts
otokonomidori 350000+otokonomidori 350000+otokonomidori 350000+otokonomidori 350000+otokonomidori 350000+otokonomidori 350000+otokonomidori 350000+otokonomidori 350000+otokonomidori 350000+otokonomidori 350000+otokonomidori 350000+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by palo5 View Post
.... homelessness and poverty were almost unknown in the East, same with unemployment....
So how do you spot the losers when everybody gets a fair share of bugger-all?
otokonomidori is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to otokonomidori For This Useful Post:
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT. The time now is 06:54 AM.






vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise v2.6.1 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.