The First World War

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by palo5

Your link does not mention the word 'starvation'

Starvation was the main cause of death and not for British forces in Germany only. The Timewatch documentary explained this in a lot of detail. One should remember that the economies of Germany and Austria-Hungary were in crisis and that their own civilian populations were very nearly starving too. This used to be credited to/blamed on the Royal Naval blockade; but the main reason was actually sheer mismanagement, especially of agriculture, by the relevent governments. No one had anticipated a war which would drag on for over 4 years. Russia had her problems too, food riots and all sorts of internal schisms due to hardship inflicted on peope who were never consulted over the decision to go to war.

Why else would one in eight British POWs turn up dead palo, if not starvation? No doubt some of them died of diseases, but it is well understood that disease resistance is weak when you are already malnourished. I think we can be definite that the Germans didn't shoot them; that would be extremely well known about, if they had.

[Ennath]

April 8, 1904
Diplomatic Relations The Anglo-French Entente is signed, eliminating sources of colonial disagreement. Not an alliance, it nevertheless paves the way for a serious shift in relations between the two countries. A clause in the agreement pledges both nations to uphold its terms. At first the Germans do not see the implications, but they are soon alarmed.

April 8, 1915
Western Front French attacks in the Woevre district are repulsed.
Eastern Front There is indecisive fighting in the Carpathians.
War Crimes The Turkish government, persuaded that the Armenians, who are Christian, are disloyal and have given active support to the Russians, launches the Turkish army into an operation to deport or exterminate the entire Armenian community of 2 million. They begin the months-long process by requisitioning the Armenians’ belongings in order to generate resistance that can then be suppressed; then follows rape, torture, execution and forced exile of tens of thousands to Mesopotamia, many dying during the forced marches.
Egypt There is an assassination attempt on the Khedive Hussein Kamel.
Diplomatic Relations The Italians, being courted by both sides, send a note to the Austrian government, demanding territorial concessions in return for neutrality. They demand the Trentino, Gorizia, Gardisca and the islands off Dalmatia, along with recognition of Italian primacy in Albania.

April 8, 1916
Western Front, Verdun The French evacuate Bethincourt.
Ireland An article in Sinn Fein’s The Irish Volunteer calls for maneuvers on the 23rd. These are, in fact, to be an uprising.
Mexico Pershing’s Punitive Expedition has advanced over 300 miles into Mexico in search of Villa. Carranza, who had expected the expedition to be small and of limited duration, finds its size and intrusion alarming.

April 8, 1917
Western Front The British gain near Louveral. The civil population of Rheims is evacuated.
Germany The Kaiser promises Prussian electoral reforms.
Mesopotamia The British capture Balad station on the Baghdad-Samarra railway.
Diplomatic Relations Austria-Hungary severs relations with the United States.

April 8, 1918
Western Front French troops are forced back at the Forest of Coucy and Landricourt. German attacks in the Vosges and at Verdun are repulsed.
Diplomatic Relations Berlin responds to Soviet protests by demanding the disarmament of the Russian fleet.
Russia The Bessarabian Council of the Land votes for union with Rumania.
Eastern Front Austro-German troops occupy Kharkov and Rostov.

April 8, 1919
Russia The Allied garrison of Odessa (French and Greek) is forced by Soviet pressure to evacuate. There is disaffection in the war weary Allied ranks.

April 8, 1920
Mexico Carranza escapes assassination. He has determined not to run for reelection. His natural successor is his military commander Alavaro Obregon, the man responsible for beating Pancho Villa, but Carranza feels the country should have a president who is not a general. Obregon and other generals rebel and now Carranza flees Mexico City. He is killed on May 21.Obregon’s new government issues a pardon to Villa, ending the civil wars.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

Why else would one in eight British POWs turn up dead..., if not starvation?...

Well, PoW camps are never healthy places to be no matter where you are, and there are many reasons you can die

You are almost certainly right that they did not have a healthy diet, but that doesn't mean they were starved to death

Many were probably suffering from wounds or the results of them - I can't document this, but it is a reasonable assumption, imho. And I would guess that many had lice, which is not a health-promoting condition. 'Normal' diseases can be very hard to control, especially if accommodation is crowded

'Normal attrition' is also a factor to be considered - campaigning armies could expect to lose around 10% per year until quite recently, so no matter how much hygiene etc improves, you'll always lose a percentage. If you want a recent number, the USSR lost around 14.000 men in Afghanistan, but 'only' about 9.500 were killed in action

But the major factor is likely to be 'Spanish Flu', which may have killed more than 50 million people worldwide. And even if it was 'only 20 million', it was still twice as many as the war killed

Lastly, did your returning PoWs resemble people from Japanese camps or German concentration camps after WW2? If so, there should be no shortage of pictures and documentation

- * -

However, I must ask if we are looking at the right statistic. If your 8% is accurate, it means a 92% survival rate, which looks good to me. Without wishing to appear cruel, for that war 100 years ago, I would accept it in a blink

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by palo5

You are almost certainly right that they did not have a healthy diet, but that doesn't mean they were starved to death.

They were starved to death, the point is very specific. You feed someone less calories than the minimum required to sustain life and then you use them as slave labour on hard manual work, you are responsible when they die.

From wikipedia:

According to official directives concerning nourishment issued at the beginning of 1916, each week the prisoner was to have 600-1,000 g of potatoes, 200-300 g of vegetables at lunch, meat three times, fish twice and 150 g of legumes. The reality was quite far from what these menus prescribed. Not only was the food insufficient, it was often quite detrimental to health: “The other day I saw, in our kitchens, quarters of refrigerated beef of which the smell and greenish tint were so pronounced that our cooks refused to prepare them. The German head doctor, called to arbitrate, ordered them soaked in a solution of permanganate and, the day after the morrow, this meat, thus disinfected, decorated the ordinary one”.

The food served in the camps, often the cause of illness, weakened the prisoners more than it kept them in shape. Only parcels and shipments from the Red Cross allowed them to hang on.

Note that the Timewatch program emphasised this critical point. The men who died tended to be the men captured alone and who had no mates to share red cross parcels and who didn't get food parcels of their own soon enough. The Germans didn't steal the food, but they often spoiled it on purpose out of spite, on the pretext of inspecting the parcels for contraband. Wikipedia again:

Food, like mail, was a means of pressure and revenge on the part of the camp authorities. Package inspections often gave rise to wasteful scenes:
“At the kommandantur everything had been rummaged: the cans had all been punctured or opened, the chocolate broken into little pieces, the sausages cut lengthwise […] I saw them mixing in the same mess kit, or in the same container, meat, fish, vegetables, prunes, biscuits, pastries, jam […] What deplorable waste; it’s a crime against humanity. […] Our indignation could be read in our eyes; these sons of dogs, or rather of wolves, sniggered with joy at it”(Les carnets de captivité de Charles Gueugnier).

I am very specifically inditing the camp guards here, not the German people at large, who were not to blame for things they didn't even know about.

Originally Posted by palo5

'Normal attrition' is also a factor to be considered - campaigning armies could expect to lose around 10% per year until quite recently, so no matter how much hygiene etc improves, you'll always lose a percentage.

But the major factor is likely to be 'Spanish Flu', which may have killed more than 50 million people worldwide. And even if it was 'only 20 million', it was still twice as many as the war killed.

Most people who died of Spanish Flu died after the war ended actually. Typhus (a rickitic disease spread by lice as you mentioned) would be a likelier killer but not one in eight; also the deaths were in a regular stream rather than a bulge as you get with epidemic diseases.

Originally Posted by palo5

Lastly, did your returning PoWs resemble people from Japanese camps or German concentration camps after WW2? If so, there should be no shortage of pictures and documentation.

Yes they did. The program showed photos. I am not making this up.

Originally Posted by palo5

However, I must ask if we are looking at the right statistic. If your 8% is accurate, it means a 92% survival rate, which looks good to me. Without wishing to appear cruel, for that war 100 years ago, I would accept it in a blink

12.5% actually; statistically rather high for a young male group over at most 4 years in the prime of their lives. Actuarially speaking, I find that rate of mortality indicative of systematic illegal bad treatment. To compare, the mortality of German prisoners of war in British camps in the Second World War was 0.03%. Why so low? Because we fed and clothed them and heated their huts. It was no vacation and they hated it and said so, and we didn't give a damn; but we treated them as we would expect to be treated ourselves.

One must bear in mind that a man who goes hands-up has lost face, is shamed; it was not usually cowardice but hard necessity which made men surrender, and no one has a right to expect men to die merely for the sake of a futile gesture. However, there's a stigma that goes with having surrendered. Many men who escaped and fought again did so to wipe that slate clean. Likewise, the attitude of captors to those who went hands-up was at best superior and condescending. Being in such power over so many prisoners is a massive test of character. If you can say afterwards that all your prisoners were treated fair and they survived to be reunited with their wives and kids after it was all over, that's a badge of honour.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

12.5% actually

You are right - I misread it as 8%, sorry. But it is a survival rate of 87,5% which is above my expectations for a war 100 years ago

They were starved to death, the point is very specific...Note that the Timewatch program emphasised this critical point

It would be interesting to see this, but there is no link. Are you sure you can't provide one? Btw, did you get your information from a single TV program? That's not like you

Most people who died of Spanish Flu died after the war ended

That's absolutely true. But many died before the end of the war - how many we don't know, because the stats are no better than guesses. But it can't be right to ignore one of the deadliest pandemics in history when discussing what one considers is an excessive number of deaths

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by palo5

Btw, did you get your information from a single TV program? That's not like you

Sources on the fate and conditions of First World War POWs are surprisingly scanty; the literature is much more extensive on WW2. The national archive website discloses that 191,652 British and Commonwealth soldiers were taken prisoner altogether in WW1, in all theatres; but there isn't much breakdown of that figure. About 13,000 British and Indian troops were captured by Turkey after the 147 day siege of Kut; most died in captivity. I don't know how many were captured during the Gallipoli campaign; the Australian war memorial site says 70 Australians were taken prisoner, which isn't many compared with the 17,360 killed. I am sure that the vast majority of that 191,652 were captured by German forces in France and Belgium. So we are talking about fatalities of over 20,000 in captivity in German POW camps; that's a lot too many.

The corresponding statistic in WW2 was 3.5%. For the luckless Russians taken POW by the Germans in WW2 it was 57.5%. The other way round, it was 35.2%. The Geneva Convention saved many British and Commonwealth lives; sadly, Russia hadn't signed it.

British attitudes to Germany in WW2 and after were rooted in the WW1 experience; it's no secret that we cherished deep and sincere animosity towards Germany and this didn't start on 3rd September 1939. A lot of it was fed by total lies. For example, we loathed the Germans for using poison gas, a trick worthy only of scum; but we used poison gas ourselves. Incidentally, the first gas attacks were by France in 1914. Our attitudes were very convenient and self-serving, as is usual in war. But I cannot doubt that returning POWs told their families how they were treated and that word got around in spite of the lack of official press coverage, and that this became part of our folk-memory by WW2.

[rotobott]

Maybe you're thinking of Secret History, Prisoners of the Kaiser ?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2000/aug/31/johnezard

[Ennath]

April 9, 1915
Western Front The French finally complete the capture of Les Eparges. There is more fighting on the Meuse.
Eastern Front The Russians make some progress near Suvalki. The Carpathians fighting is indecisive.
German Planning Falkenhayn, though still wishing for a decisive blow in the West, recognizes that the threat to Turkey and Austria-Hungary is too pressing. In response to urgings from Conrad von Hotzendorf, who believes that a successful campaign against Russia may persuade Rumania and Italy to join in, he decides to divert eight more corps to the eastern front for a major spring offensive against the Russians. Mackensen is placed in command of the new 11th Army.
Greece Venizelos temporarily retires from public life.
Indian Ocean The Königsberg, blockaded in the Rufiji Delta, has been planning to make a break for the open sea. On this day, the steamer Kronborg arrives secretly offshore with supplies for the cruiser.

April 9, 1916
Western Front, Verdun The Germans launch a full-scale attack on both banks of the Meuse, with major thrusts at Le Mort Homme and Hill 304, advancing to a secondary summit on Le Mort Homme – the French continue to hold the main peak 100 feet higher and several hundred yards further on – while failing totally at Hill 304. The merciless French machine gun fire on the German right continues.
Western Front, Elsewhere The British regain a mine crater at St. Eloi.
Sudan Anglo-Egyptian forces in Darfur occupy Abiad.
Diplomatic Relations The Greek-Bulgarian frontier is closed to passenger traffic. Mail to Bulgaria and Turkey continues.

April 9, 1917
Western Front Haig’s part of the spring offensive, the Battle of Arras, opens, supported by 2817 guns and mortars which have been shelling the positions of Baron Ludwig von Falkenhausen’s 6th Army for four days with telling effect, destroying trenches, disrupting communications, and preventing food deliveries to the front line. The British infantry has the advantage of a connected series of caves and mine shafts that can accommodate 30,000 troops, who can move well out into No-Man’s Land before emerging into the open. The 3rd Army, commanded by Sir Edmund Allenby, moves out from Arras in the center of the attack, while the 1st Army, under Sir Henry Horne, pushes toward Vimy Ridge. The southern, or right, flank is entrusted to Sir Hubert Gough’s 5th Army. Canadian troops of 1st Army on the far left capture part of Vimy Ridge, heretofore considered impregnable, with 6000 prisoners. Allenby’s troops sweep ahead, taking Fampoux on the north bank of the Scarpe River as night falls. With the help of a single tank, which knocks out German machine gun posts one by one, Allenby’s men also advance toward Feuchy, taking that objective in the afternoon, while to their right other units push through Neuville Vitasse toward Wancourt. But here and on the far right, the Hindenburg Line holds. Allenby’s successful troops have captured 5600 prisoners and 36 guns. Cold, hail, and snow set in during the night, impeding movement of the horse-drawn artillery to the forward positions.
War in the Air The aerial operations leading up to the Arras offensive have been a terrible time for the Royal Flying Corps; new aircraft types are not expected until summer and the older types being flown are outclassed by the German machines. It is the start of “Bloody April”, during which the average life expectancy of a British pilot at the front is 18 hours.
Caucasus Russian troops occupy Kizil Robat.
Diplomatic Relations Brazil breaks relations with Germany.

April 9, 1918
Western Front The Battle of the Lys opens. Haig has expressed concerns to Foch that a German attack may be likely against British lines north of Arras, but Foch, preferring to cluster a major force near Amiens, has refused to redeploy French troops to relieve the British south of the Somme so that they can reinforce the Flanders area. In the meantime, General Ludendorff has decided to begin the second phase of his offensive plan. At 4:14 AM, Ferdinand von Quast’s 6th Army unleashes a barrage from La Bassee to Armentieres to begin the assault. Its primary target is the Portuguese Corps of Horne’s 1st Army, defending the Lys River near Neuve Chapelle. (Haig has planned to remove the Portuguese from this sector that night.) At 8:45 AM, the Germans go over the top, finding the Portuguese line partially abandoned and race ahead 3 miles without serious resistance, reaching the British defensive line along the Lys and Lawe Rivers. The British put up a stiff resistance, the struggle being especially desperate along the Lawe. In the late afternoon, one of Quast’s divisions finds a bridge still standing across the Lys at Bac St. Maur and crosses over. The Germans capture 6000 Portuguese. The British find the remaining 13,000 dispersed in rear areas.
Britain Lloyd George, assessing the situation at the front, tells the House of Commons “We have entered the most critical phase of this most terrible war. There is a lull in the storm, but the hurricane is not over.”
Palestine British troops advance 1.5 miles on a 5 mile front east of the Tul Karm-Ramalah railway.
Rumania Bessarabia declares its union with Rumania.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by rotobott

Maybe you're thinking of Secret History, Prisoners of the Kaiser ?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2000/aug/31/johnezard

Thanks for the link, rotobott. This is very probably the program I saw; I had it in my mind that it was a Timewatch documentary and that's no doubt why I failed to find it. One thing I particularly remember is that the Germans censored mail home to conceal the extreme privations of the POWs; one poor devil was being made to report how he was in good spirits and looking forward to a parcel from home, when actually what he meant was please send me a parcel because I am dying of starvation. He died because no parcel came in time.

[Ennath]

April 10, 1915
Western Front In the Woevre sector, the French progress in the Bois de Montmare.
Eastern Front In the Carpathians, there is severe fighting for the Uzsok Pass.
Serbian Front An Austrian monitor shells Belgrade. Albanians raid Durazzo.
Black Sea Russian and Turkish forces clash off the Bosporus. The Goeben is lightly damaged.
Diplomatic Relations The German government protests to the United States over its unneutral conduct.

April 10, 1916
Western Front, Verdun A critical day of fighting. The Germans make a general attack along the Meuse and on Le Mort Homme. They make slight gains at Poivre Hill.
Western Front, Elsewhere The Germans make slight gains at St. Eloi.
Mediterranean The Allies decide to establish naval bases in the Ionian Islands and the Aegean. Allied ships begin transporting Serbian troops to Salonika to augment the Allied army.
German East AfricaA Portuguese force occupies Kionga with little opposition.
World Affairs The International Olympic Committee cancels the Olympic Games until the end of the war. The 1916 Games were scheduled for Berlin.

April 10, 1917
Western Front The British have failed to take advantage of the salient at Fampoux that opened a gap of 10,000 yards in the German line and now their advance creeps forward, taking Farbus. Long-range British guns devastate Monchy-le-Preux, but in the afternoon German reserve infantry and artillery arrive to bolster the defense. Ludendorff, dismayed that Falkenhausen failed to implement the new German defensive strategy – for example, not bringing up reserves in time to thwart the British attack – dismisses the baron from command. Ferdinand von Quast succeeds him. The French open their preparatory bombardment.
War at Sea The hospital ship Salta is mined in the English Channel, with 52 dead.
Russia The government states its new war aims. With the military in disarray, the defense of the homeland is the top priority. The statement asserts that Russia seeks only peace and autonomy, and not new territory.
Mesopotamia Deferring a plan to attack at the Shatt al-Adhaim, the British turn to meet the threat of a 7000-man Turkish force from the northeast. The British halt the advance at Ghaliya.
United States There is a major explosion at a munitions factory at Eddystone, near Philadelphia.

April 10, 1918
Western Front Sixt von Arnim’s 4th Army joins the attack, hitting Plumer’s 2nd Army north of Armentieres. At midday, the British evacuate the town, rendered indefensible by Quast’s advance the previous day. 6th Army takes it while pursuing an attack across the Lys above Bac St. Maur towards Bailleul. The British line is forced back to Messines and Ploegsteert.
Russia Soviet troops at Vladivostok fire on Japanese forces.
Palestine Turco-German forces attack in the coastal sector, gaining initial success, but they are forced back beyond their start line by the end of the day.
Liberia A U-Boat bombards Monrovia, destroying the wireless station and sinking the gunboat comprising the Liberian Navy.
Allied Diplomacy Czech, Polish, Rumanian and south Slav delegates meet in Rome for the Congress of Oppressed Austrian nationalities.

April 10, 1919
India Rioting begins at Amritsar; 3 Europeans are killed.
Hungary A French-sponsored anti-Communist government is established at Szeged.