The First World War

[haroldeye]

There are still stories from Minden in the early 1960's of when the Italians were trying to take over the town. A couple of the Cameronians were ambushed in a bar and given a pasting and in response the CSM got the rest of the boys together and moved them to the bar in company transport. Several baby mafiosi put firmly in place and one bar in severe need of redecoration. The German police did nothing because they were happy to see the gangsters dealt with. Probably apocryphal but a good story never the less.

[Mad Koala Bear]

Originally Posted by knobby109

I read somewhere that on average a WW1 recruit grew 2 inches and added several pounds in body weight as a result of better nutrition.
Even in WW2 it's thought that the general public was better fed than before despite rationing ; a basic diet was available and there was very little unemployment.

Indeed. For a lot of recruits enlisting ensured not only healthy, nutritious food, albeit a bit dull, but also, wounds aside, better medical attention than many would get at home in those pre-national health days. Without doubt, the British soldier of the first world war was better looked after in terms of nutrition, health and welfare than any of the other combatants before the arrival of the Americans. Great strides were taken to ensure, where possible, that the man at the front was well looked after. Bear in mind that, alone amongst the major combatants of the war, the British army suffered no wholesale collapse of morale or had a mutiny. No other army instilled in its officers the rule 'Horses first, then the men, then the officers.'

I can heartily recommend 'Mud, Blood and Poppycock', by Gordon Corrigan for a refreshingly revisionist view on what it was like for the enlisted men of 1914-18.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mud-Blood-Po.../dp/0304366595

Its nothing less than how, to put no finer point on it, 'Britain won the First World War', with some help.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by damp-patch

...'Britain won the First World War', with some help.

Without the Americans, the British and French would have lost. Without the Russians, they'd have lost even sooner

[Mad Koala Bear]

Originally Posted by palo5

Without the Americans, the British and French would have lost. Without the Russians, they'd have lost even sooner

I must take issue with you there Palo. As useful as Russia was in keeping many divisions in the East, those troops largely were transferred to the Western Front after Brest-Litovsk in 1917. Similarly, in my opinion, though American assistance in material was of course very important before their entry into the conflict, it was the impending massive influx of US troops, rather than any decisive engagement by them, that was a major factor. The fact remains that it was the highly motivated, trained and equipped British Army that decided the matter in the end.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by damp-patch

...The fact remains that it was the highly motivated, trained and equipped British Army that decided the matter in the end.

No, they were making plans to evacuate France in May 1918. Morale was very low. But then came millions of Americans to save their bacon. It's no secret

Without American supplies, and Russians keeping millions of Germans elsewhere, they'd have perished long before

Comic books are great amusement, but no one really thinks the British & French could beat the Germans on land. They would lose

But at sea, now there you have a different story

[Mad Koala Bear]

Originally Posted by palo5

No, they were making plans to evacuate France in May 1918. Morale was very low. But then came millions of Americans to save their bacon. It's no secret

Without American supplies, and Russians keeping millions of Germans elsewhere, they'd have perished long before

Comic books are great amusement, but no one really thinks the British & French could beat the Germans on land. They would lose

But at sea, now there you have a different story

The British made no plans to evacuate in may as by the end of April the German offensive had run out of steam. Though the allied line was severely pushed by the Germans, it never broke.

I accepted that the imminent arrival of the American en masse was an important factor, and that their provision of supplies over the previous years had obviously helped, but the fact remains that British morale was high, and that the troops had no doubt that they would prevail even in the depths of the last gasp offensive by the enemy.

What comic books? The book I mentioned is a well research description of the British Army in the biggest conflict it had ever engaged in, written by a retired Gurkha Regiment officer.

Strangely, the one field in which we should have prevailed massively, the naval war (excluding anti-U-boat warfare) never produced a decisive victory. I would be the first to accept that the Royal Navy got a very bloody nose at Jutland, losing more ships ('There's something wrong with our bloody ships today - Admiral Beatty) and sailors, than the Kreigsmarine, but they never returned to the North Sea whereas the RN was ready to put to sea again within 24 hours.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by damp-patch

...I accepted that the imminent arrival of the American en masse was an important factor, and that their provision of supplies over the previous years had obviously helped...

The Americans were the decisive factor in WW1. Without their men & supplies, not to mention finance, you'd have lost

British morale was low in 1917/18 after so many big failures on land. They needed a miracle and the Americans were it, no matter what the comic books say. Without them, the Germans would have won, no question about that

Strangely, the one field in which we should have prevailed massively, the naval war (excluding anti-U-boat warfare) never produced a decisive victory...

The Navy did fine. Like the Battle of Britain in WW2, they only needed a draw to win, and that's what they got

[haroldeye]

Dampers - this is one issue you will never convince Palo about. He refuses to accept that the BEF in 1918 was the Army that beat the Germans. I have in the past drawn his attention to M,B&P, and to Gary Sheffields 'Forgotten Victory The First World War Myths and Realities'. Palo just refuses to accept that anyone but the Americans could beat the Boche. Likewise his comment about the RN only needing a draw. The day after Jutland the Royal Navy was in control of the seas and the High Seas Fleet was tucked up safe in harbour licking it's wounds and fomenting revolution. Previously in this thread Palo has admitted that the blockade starved Germany into a perilous position. He forgets that this blockade was imposed by the Royal Navy.

As for finance. In 1914 Britain was the richest nation in the world and we spent it all in the great fight. In 1940 we needed American financial aid, but not in WW!.

The greatest contribution by the Americans was getting there. There impending arrival forced the Germans into planning the Kaiserschlact, which meant the Germans going onto a large scale offensive (with it's appalling casualties) and when that last throw was beaten and the allies came back at Amiens the Germans knew they were beaten.

No disrespect to Palo but on this issue he sits firmly with Alan Clarke (who admitted he made it all up).

[knobby109]

The Americans did make a difference though contributed only a modest amount militarily by the end.Morale was in fact excellent in the British Army and it was retraining to become the most modern force on the planet, a fact not lost on the Germans later.
What really mattered was the failure of Operation Michael in March 1918 , as always in WW1 the attackers lost more heavily than the defenders and the Germans ran out of reserves.They even called up a class of boys too young. Also, having been fed information about how the U-boats were starving Britain they found in their advances that British troops were abundantly supplied, much better than Germans.And the British naval blockade had brought near starvation to the German people.Time to give up, the potential of fresh US troops may have been the last straw but it was the state of Germany which was the clincher.

[haroldeye]

It's interesting that one of the senior German commanders (Ludendorf I think ) said that the Somme battles broke the back of the German Army and after that it was downhill.