Current Politics in the United Kingdom

[palo5]

Originally Posted by seany65

How do you know we are doing so badly at the negotiations?

Because UK proposals lack substance, and are meant for the UK press to propagandize, and are not anything the EU can consider

Regrettably, the EU has allowed "opt-outs" and the like in the past, but it doesn't do "fudges" in the same way as the British. If you don't commit yourself to paper, no one will trust you

So, it's because you have nothing on paper: that's how we know you are doing badly

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by palo5

Well, you put yourself in that position, not anyone else

You mean "Do what I say or I'll shoot myself in the foot". That's what some of the negotiations have sounded like

I can see how it might be a little bit vexing to you that we are not soiling our underpants on this one. But many of us would like to have a deal with the EU on our new relationship but will still be quite determined to leave regardless of whether or not such a deal can be achieved. What might be a self-inflicted wound is if we are so desperate for a deal that we will knuckle under to the EU's palpable bullying and bullshit. They are trying it on with their position on financial services and it would be fatal to show weakness in the face of this. Either they will include financial services in the eventual agreement or they won't - we can't make them do it. It need not be "passporting" as it is now, but an arrangement of some description is both achievable and would be in the interests of both parties. So, if they refuse to entertain a discussion or a deal, we will know that we are in Francois Hollande territory. The EU can refuse; but if they refuse, they can't make us sign.

We shall see what May and Davis are made of. I am quite prepared to accept them walking away from the table if no compromise can be won. But if they knuckle under and sign a deal on goods only and no services, that will be proof of spineless incompetence and I doubt if the country will want to live with that for long.

[palo5]

You've been told many times, either you're in the Market, or you're not. You said "No" so that means "No" for services, including financial services

I know that screws you, but you were warned about that in advance

[scoundrel]

IMHO no services should also mean no goods, no goodbye payoff, no access to British fishing waters and a hard border for Northern Ireland; compulsory capitalisation in the UK for any EU bank which wants to trade in London and no other cooperation except on security and citizens rights. We too can do a lot to make life uncomfortable if that is going to be the name of this game.

[palo5]

Everyone knows that. You always said no deal is better than a bad deal, so back to WTO you go. Except the EU has planned for that and you haven't

Btw, in case you believed the BS that "they need us more than we need them" I think you're about to be taught a hard lesson

[scoundrel]

Everyone knows that. You always said no deal is better than a bad deal, so back to WTO you go. Except the EU has planned for that and you haven't

Btw, in case you believed the BS that "they need us more than we need them" I think you're about to be taught a hard lesson

Very Francois Hollande. We are to be punished for wanting our independence.

No problem.

The problem might be if the EU ever wants or needs anything from Great Britain, ever again.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

The problem might be if the EU ever wants or needs anything from Great Britain, ever again.

No, your memory is short

You were told after Suez how not to behave, and you still ran back for more. You still do. It will be no different this time

You will have to face reality, I'm afraid

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by palo5

No, your memory is short

You were told after Suez how not to behave, and you still ran back for more. You still do. It will be no different this time

You will have to face reality, I'm afraid

First of course we will need to assess the "reality" we face. None of the above has happened yet. But you might be surprised. The Suez Crisis was not the same story. Here we are talking about core issues central to our national sovereignty. A more apt parallel would be May 1940 when we were divided among ourselves at the top table over whether or not to follow the road France was already on, and surrender on terms to Nazi Germany. Our national right to exist was too important to discuss and so we elected to fight to the death.

This time it is not a war, but it is a debate about what kind of country we are going to be and who will call the shots here, and no trade agreement is as important as that. We are sincere about wanting to negotiate; but we aren't going to be bent over the table.

[haroldeye]

Originally Posted by palo5

No, your memory is short

You were told after Suez how not to behave, and you still ran back for more. You still do. It will be no different this time

You will have to face reality, I'm afraid

Is that whilst the Sovs were giving the Hungarians a good fucking?

[haroldeye]

Actually Palo as a communist of the Soviet type and as someone who has decried democracy as unimportant (past posts) the EU Commission is something you agree with, and something meets your idea of reality. We think better of our people.