The NFL and NBA thread

[grossnex]

Originally Posted by qwerty007

What I remember most about Penny, was that he was often injured. Good player, just brittle.

I'm guessing you've also heard about the 'bankrupt sensation' Antoine Walker also wanting to come out of retirement? He needs the $$$, mind you..

(Him, along with Pippen, Spreewell...)

How long do you figure JaFlubber Russell will last before he's filing for Chapter 11? (or in jail for 'purple drank')

Absolutely. Was one of the best players in the game until all the injuries started to mount up.

I saw you mentioned Antoine Walker being bankrupt in an earlier post, so I checked it out. You know...slightly off topic here, but how much $ do you think these guys lost when Wall Street got bailed out? I know that a guy like Bill Maher almost lost his shirt, but he still has a job. These guys in the NBA & NFL have been retired. How are they going to get their money back? I believe it was Mike Webster from the '70's Steelers dynasty, who was homeless & living in his car for years after he retired. It was honestly one of the saddest articles I've ever read in my entire life .

I could be wrong, but didn't Russell come out of college early to play in the NFL while his stock was high? Considering the guy shows no desire at all to play football, wouldn't getting some sort of degree (while on a full scholarship) make all the sense in the world? For example, I've heard that Emmitt Smith has made more $ after football than he ever did as a player.

[qwerty007]

Originally Posted by grossnex

Absolutely. Was one of the best players in the game until all the injuries started to mount up.

I saw you mentioned Antoine Walker being bankrupt in an earlier post, so I checked it out. You know...slightly off topic here, but how much $ do you think these guys lost when Wall Street got bailed out? I know that a guy like Bill Maher almost lost his shirt, but he still has a job. These guys in the NBA & NFL have been retired. How are they going to get their money back? I believe it was Mike Webster from the '70's Steelers dynasty, who was homeless & living in his car for years after he retired. It was honestly one of the saddest articles I've ever read in my entire life .

I could be wrong, but didn't Russell come out of college early to play in the NFL while his stock was high? Considering the guy shows no desire at all to play football, wouldn't getting some sort of degree (while on a full scholarship) make all the sense in the world? For example, I've heard that Emmitt Smith has made more $ after football than he ever did as a player.

I guess we can break this up into 2 parts - the guys who played their hearts out and didn't earn a whole bunch...and the guys of today.

Mike Webster, RIP, HOF center from the Steelers, is in that first group. Players today, a la Mark Brunell, really have no excuse.

The first rule of any investment portfolio is:

Diversification.

Boats, cars, jewellery do not constitute investments. That seems to be the problem with players today. They think that the gravy train will last forever and instead of investing wisely, they piss it all away.

The second part - diversification, is as simple as this; don't keep all your eggs in one basket.

Let's look at Mr Brunell (from Jax) as an example. He made $50 million in his career, so far. Let say AT WORST, he's paid half of that in taxes ( a smart accountant should do better, but let's be conservative). So he's got $25 million.

You can look at this a couple of ways; one school of thought is "I need to make this $25 million last the next 50 years of my life." Another is "How can I make as much money as possible from this $25 million"

The second school of thought is, as you might think, quite risky.

Optimally, you spread the risk over many investments. No...getting 2-3% return isn't very sexy, but safe is sometimes good. If you put $10 million in a low risk investment and get $300,000 a year...it's not great, but the world has to collapse before you lose your shirt.

Madoff, AIG, Lehmann and all this shit happened for one reason; greed. Everyone wanted a greater return than normal and they ignored reality. There really is, no 'get rich quick' scheme.

If athletes took all their money, put MOST of it in super low risk investments and lived in a $500,000 house, instead of a $5 million dollar house, had 2 cars, instead of a handful...and invested 10% of their fortune in high risk/high reward schemes, we wouldn't be having these conversations

But where's the fun in that.

[grossnex]

Qwerty my friend , as is usually the case, brilliant analysis my brother. I couldn't have summed it all up any better. Another example that I can use is an NBA player like Larry Johnson (anybody remember Grandmama?) I don't want to speculate, but the guy had more children than the av-er-age bear which lead to child support payments that left him virtually bankrupt. That was way before the US economy tanked, so he can't blame it all on that. I believe it was around 2000 or '01 when the NY media was reporting the story. I honestly don't know what ever happened to the guy, but the last info I heard was not good.

I think you touched on a mental complex that seems to permeate throughout professional sports in the US, with the exeption being "maybe" hockey players.
Boxers like Mike Tyson & Evander Holyfield; MLB players like Pete Rose & Dwight Gooden; NBA players like Larry Johnson & Latrell Sprewell (I had the displeasure of hearing about how he need a huge contract from the Knicks to feed his family through the NY media 1st hand ); NFL players like Mark Brunell & Lawrence Taylor (Great player with extremely questionable judgement) all seem to think their paychecks will last forever.

I asked a question earlier about whether these guys think they're rap stars or professional athletes. I can widen that question even further & ask, "Do they think they're rock stars or movie stars?"

These guys in the NBA who want to come out of retirement, remind me of a guy like Mickey Rourke, who was flat broke until he got another chance with The Wrestler. Not to mention every time I see a band like The Rolling Stones or The Who going on tour with no new album to support with that tour. They might be doing it for the sheer love, but my cynical mind always asks, "What are they piss poor or something?" As a guy who doesn't have the proverbial "Pot to piss in" or "A window to throw it out of" I can only sit back & dream about how I would spend the rest of my modest life with $25 million in the bank. Most of these guys use sports as a way to get out of poverty & in the end they're right back where they started from. This time with a few interesting stories to tell. It's all just too much for me to wrap my head around.

[qwerty007]

Originally Posted by grossnex

Qwerty my friend , as is usually the case, brilliant analysis my brother. I couldn't have summed it all up any better. Another example that I can use is an NBA player like Larry Johnson (anybody remember Grandmama?) I don't want to speculate, but the guy had more children than the av-er-age bear which lead to child support payments that left him virtually bankrupt. That was way before the US economy tanked, so he can't blame it all on that. I believe it was around 2000 or '01 when the NY media was reporting the story. I honestly don't know what ever happened to the guy, but the last info I heard was not good.

I think you touched on a mental complex that seems to permeate throughout professional sports in the US, with the exeption being "maybe" hockey players.
Boxers like Mike Tyson & Evander Holyfield; MLB players like Pete Rose & Dwight Gooden; NBA players like Larry Johnson & Latrell Sprewell (I had the displeasure of hearing about how he need a huge contract from the Knicks to feed his family through the NY media 1st hand ); NFL players like Mark Brunell & Lawrence Taylor (Great player with extremely questionable judgement) all seem to think their paychecks will last forever.

I asked a question earlier about whether these guys think they're rap stars or professional athletes. I can widen that question even further & ask, "Do they think they're rock stars or movie stars?"

LJ...forgot about him!!!

If I remember correctly, he injured his back and then wouldn't allow the Knicks to buy him out - preferring to sit injured and collect his full paycheck? ("I'm rehabbing!")

Let me add to the list of spreading their wild oats:

Shawn Kemp - 7/6
Travis Henry - 9/9 with $170k child support pymts
Antonio Cromartie - 7/6/5 needed a $500k advance to 'make ends meet'

The difference (as you aptly noted) is that movie stars, even WASHED UP, ADDICTION FIGHTING, LOST SOULS...like Mickey Rourke can turn it around with one flick. Hello! John Travolta and Pulp Fiction?

I think it is worth noting that as you go through 'troubles' you become wiser, develop a level of sageness and can recover your life. Athletes, if they don't get common sense QUICK, lose it all, and fall out of earning potential in a hurry. They get smart LATER..but can't play then.

What's funny, is that you see a lot of people out there who say "An athlete's window of opportunity to earn $$$ is short, so they have to make as much as quickly as possible...they might blow out a knee, get cut or whatever"

If we researched it, I would love to see what the breakdown is, between an athlete who loses his fortune due to BLOWING OUT A KNEE and losing their career (i.e. injury) VS. losing it all due to stupidity (wasting it all).

Is it even 90/10?

[keefriff]

Originally Posted by qwerty007

LJ...forgot about him!!!

If I remember correctly, he injured his back and then wouldn't allow the Knicks to buy him out - preferring to sit injured and collect his full paycheck? ("I'm rehabbing!")

Let me add to the list of spreading their wild oats:

Shawn Kemp - 7/6
Travis Henry - 9/9 with $170k child support pymts
Antonio Cromartie - 7/6/5 needed a $500k advance to 'make ends meet'

The difference (as you aptly noted) is that movie stars, even WASHED UP, ADDICTION FIGHTING, LOST SOULS...like Mickey Rourke can turn it around with one flick. Hello! John Travolta and Pulp Fiction?

I think it is worth noting that as you go through 'troubles' you become wiser, develop a level of sageness and can recover your life. Athletes, if they don't get common sense QUICK, lose it all, and fall out of earning potential in a hurry. They get smart LATER..but can't play then.

What's funny, is that you see a lot of people out there who say "An athlete's window of opportunity to earn $$$ is short, so they have to make as much as quickly as possible...they might blow out a knee, get cut or whatever"

If we researched it, I would love to see what the breakdown is, between an athlete who loses his fortune due to BLOWING OUT A KNEE and losing their career (i.e. injury) VS. losing it all due to stupidity (wasting it all).

Is it even 90/10?

I think I know who you might be refering to with that underlined passage. I would love to see those statistics too since you seem to be throwing out random percentages to justify your position. 90/10, 75% from a previous post. Where do you get these figures? And why so much hostility towards all of these athletes? I don't get it. If you hate all of these players so much and their piss poor attitudes, why do you continue to watch them and complain about how much money they make and how crappy their attitudes are? I know you feel it's not like "the old days" when guys "cared more" , but you know what, the worlds not the same either. Things change and sometimes not always for the better. I'm not trying to be an a-hole here but I was hoping we could talk about SPORTS and not how their all overpaid, whiney, prima donna jerks. If this is going to be a thread about that, then change the name to something like "Athletes are A-Holes" so I can steer clear of it.

And doesn't your point about them not wising up quickly, having a short career, not being able to "come back" like actors, support the point of view that an athlete should try and get whatever he can, while he can? I guess the owners should get the millions that are being reaped from all the forms of revenue involved in sports. Heaven forbid the main attractions would be able to "cash" in on this.

And lastly, non athlete men father illegitimate children with multiple women in the real world too. You just don't hear about it. Again, IMO, more of a societal and cultural issue than a sports issue. And at least most of these athletes have the salary to support, voluntarily or by court order, their children. I wonder what that percentage is for non athletes and their ability to support their children?

Peace and Love

[grossnex]

Again qwerty, couldn't have said it better my brother .

All one needs to do is tune into ESPN. Former players who had their careers cut short due to injury, seem to find a slot on all the various shows throughout the day. Micheal Irvin, Steve Young & Jamaal Anderson (remember the dirty bird?) have all recently been seen as analysts for that network. The trick is to get a degree in broadcast journalism & there can be a very lucrative life after the glory days have passed.

Of course, enough can never be said about guys who left money on the table because they were rich above & beyond their wildest dreams. Keefriff, I'm sure can speak of Robert Smith in more depth than I can. He was one of the more graceful RBs I ever watched play. But, here's a guy who realized he was a millionaire already & used his money to get an education in the medical field.

How about Barry Sanders (the best back I ever saw run with a football)? I think we can all agree he had plenty of gas left in the tank, but got out of the game while he can still walk. I've read about how he took his money & used it to build up the community he lives in. He decided to invest with his heart & it's worked out pretty well for him.

A wise man once said, "stupid is as stupid does." OK, so he wasn't so wise, & he wasn't even a real man (fictional) but Forrest Gump had a point. There are a million & 1 ways an athlete can set himself up for the future. But, if you spend your money on houses, cars and such for yourself, family & friends - you're spending it all quicker than you can make it. It's always good to have friends, but an entourage costs way too much to sustain.

[tygrkhat40]

Originally Posted by qwerty007

Heeeeeeeyyyyyy!

Is that a Hamilton Tiger-Cats fan??? I am (temporarily) just across the bridge from you, right next to the big waterpark!

Agree about T.O., he is not a legal problem, but he is viewed as a cancer in the locker room. Whether it is merited or not, is a matter of opinion - but teams seem to be laying off of him. Mind you - he has run through his share of QB's...

Qwerty, you are the first to recognize my avatar, and yes I'm a Ti-Cats fan, although the Bills are #1 in my heart. When I went to St. Bonaventure U in SW New York, I played intramural football wearing a replica Hamilton jersey, so my nickname became TigerCat.

As far as TO goes, he's lost a step (or two). I think that's what's really keeping the teams away from him.

[qwerty007]

Originally Posted by keefriff

I think I know who you might be refering to with that underlined passage. I would love to see those statistics too since you seem to be throwing out random percentages to justify your position. 90/10, 75% from a previous post. Where do you get these figures? And why so much hostility towards all of these athletes? I don't get it. If you hate all of these players so much and their piss poor attitudes, why do you continue to watch them and complain about how much money they make and how crappy their attitudes are? I know you feel it's not like "the old days" when guys "cared more" , but you know what, the worlds not the same either. Things change and sometimes not always for the better. I'm not trying to be an a-hole here but I was hoping we could talk about SPORTS and not how their all overpaid, whiney, prima donna jerks. If this is going to be a thread about that, then change the name to something like "Athletes are A-Holes" so I can steer clear of it.

And doesn't your point about them not wising up quickly, having a short career, not being able to "come back" like actors, support the point of view that an athlete should try and get whatever he can, while he can? I guess the owners should get the millions that are being reaped from all the forms of revenue involved in sports. Heaven forbid the main attractions would be able to "cash" in on this.

And lastly, non athlete men father illegitimate children with multiple women in the real world too. You just don't hear about it. Again, IMO, more of a societal and cultural issue than a sports issue. And at least most of these athletes have the salary to support, voluntarily or by court order, their children. I wonder what that percentage is for non athletes and their ability to support their children?

Peace and Love

I guess it's true what they say - that things sent in an email can be misunderstood; so let's clear it up.

I also post on other sporting websites and I just want to say that you are not the only one who thinks players should get theirs. It was not directed ONLY at you...sorry if you understood it to be.

I know of no survey on what the reasons are for players bankruptcy.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...3364/index.htm

Here's the article I referenced and they say it is 78% in 2 years and 60% completely broke in 5 years.

What I was saying, is that if there was a survey that asked 2 simple questions to players who lost all their money;

1) I got injured and was no longer able to play
2) I wasted/lost my money

#2 would account for a goodly amount. (I wager 90%)

HENCE

When the following statement is made;

"I must get as much money as possible, as fast as possible, because I could get injured tomorrow and this money has to last the rest of my life"

It rings patently false in my ears.

(In Short: Don't tell me you can't play for $3 million, that you need $6 million, because the owners are making $30 million and that you need it for retirement...ESPECIALLY when it gets wasted!!)

The issue being that the players TURN TO THE MEDIA, to garner support from the fans...therein lies the rub.

PLAYERS

I am sorry, but I think that if the fans did not buy into this rabid "godification" of athletes, they wouldn't have such 'piss poor attitudes' as you put it. WE have changed the world. It is US, and it began with supporting the INDIVIDUAL over the team...the importance of winning, for the fans, has been supplanted with the lives of the player.

It's ironic as well, because you seem to focus on how important it is for these players, who are playing a game, to make money.

Not to win. Not to enjoy the game. Not to support the community. But to make money. Not for the fans. You then reference the owners, as a reason for this. Why are you worrying about what the 'other' guy is making...??? Why is it so important for you, that any athlete 'get paid'? I cannot understand how this is important for you? Isn't it more important for you, as a fan, that the Vikings win? (sorry...last time )

For the record;

I really don't watch basketball anymore, because of some of the reasons I just listed. I still, however, do have an opinion - which I choose to voice. As well, style has taken a precedence over substance. Down 30 with 4 mins left - dunk and run down the court pounding your chest. Calling Mike Singletary!! Calling Mike Singletary!!

Why do I harp on this:

With so much of the world facing such hard times, with so many people having their lives put into tatters, many through no fault of their own...these athletes WHO ARE GIVEN A POT OF GOLD...simply waste it.

FINALLY

This is the offseason, right? No games in either league, right? We can't talk about that team who lost last year in the NFC Champ. game, because it's a touchy subject... EVEN THOUGH we feel your pain...

So - let us badmouth these guys, we'll get it out of our system and hopefully the games'll start soon.

C'MON MAN!!!!

BTW: We can start a 'real world' thread if you like and talk about societal issues...(illegitimate...not really the point - I don't care if you married or not. I think kids are just better balanced when raised by 2 people, a check does not solve all ills. You wanna take advantage of your stardom and hit a bunch of girls - great! Just be smart and wrap it up...that's all)

[qwerty007]

Originally Posted by tygrkhat40

Qwerty, you are the first to recognize my avatar, and yes I'm a Ti-Cats fan, although the Bills are #1 in my heart. When I went to St. Bonaventure U in SW New York, I played intramural football wearing a replica Hamilton jersey, so my nickname became TigerCat.

As far as TO goes, he's lost a step (or two). I think that's what's really keeping the teams away from him.

NICE!!!




Uh..oh...sorry

[grossnex]

Originally Posted by keefriff

I think I know who you might be refering to with that underlined passage. I would love to see those statistics too since you seem to be throwing out random percentages to justify your position. 90/10, 75% from a previous post. Where do you get these figures? And why so much hostility towards all of these athletes? I don't get it. If you hate all of these players so much and their piss poor attitudes, why do you continue to watch them and complain about how much money they make and how crappy their attitudes are? I know you feel it's not like "the old days" when guys "cared more" , but you know what, the worlds not the same either. Things change and sometimes not always for the better. I'm not trying to be an a-hole here but I was hoping we could talk about SPORTS and not how their all overpaid, whiney, prima donna jerks. If this is going to be a thread about that, then change the name to something like "Athletes are A-Holes" so I can steer clear of it.

And doesn't your point about them not wising up quickly, having a short career, not being able to "come back" like actors, support the point of view that an athlete should try and get whatever he can, while he can? I guess the owners should get the millions that are being reaped from all the forms of revenue involved in sports. Heaven forbid the main attractions would be able to "cash" in on this.

And lastly, non athlete men father illegitimate children with multiple women in the real world too. You just don't hear about it. Again, IMO, more of a societal and cultural issue than a sports issue. And at least most of these athletes have the salary to support, voluntarily or by court order, their children. I wonder what that percentage is for non athletes and their ability to support their children?

Peace and Love

Keefriff, I just have to say that I think most of the problems you're having with the thread are more my fault than qwerty's. For future reference, you can say anything you want to me. I'm thick skinned, so I don't think you could offend me if you wanted to.

I'm the guy who brought up child support issues in reference to a specific player. I didn't say it was a widespread issue or a microcosm of society. I think you wound up in a place that I didn't want to go with that one.

Also, the problem that we're having at this precise moment, is that both the NFL & NBA are out of season. It's baseball season right now & that's not a part of this thread. I respect your position if you would like to talk NFL training camp, but I myself have nothing to add to the upcoming NFL season until the preseason starts.

I think we would be doing ourselves a disservice to not delve into some of the deeper rooted issues involved in modern day sports. The talking heads do exactly that every day. We touched on passion yesterday & moved on to $ issues forcing players back to the games they once dominated, because they have mountains of debt & no other skills to fall back on. Tomorrow will be something else.

I stopped paying attention to the president thread, because I tried to bring some light hearted humor & a bit of satire to the discourse. After a while, I found myself putting up posts that were heavy on the serious side & I wanted no part of it. This is sports. It's easier for us to all get along when speaking about these topics. But, here I am getting serious again. Look, no smilies.....