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March 2nd, 2018, 04:48 PM | #521 | |
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US farmers are forming cooperatives because they want to produce less output. They want to see the American people go hungry, like in the good old days of the Dust Bowl, and be as poor as their colleagues in the former Soviet Union. I am always busy to learn. |
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March 2nd, 2018, 05:00 PM | #522 | |
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Stalin's policy towards peasants was not the know-how of Communists. In the late 19th century, tsarist government increased taxes to peasants and began to take out from the grain-producing areas of whole wheat bread, including that required for internal consumption. Farmers were forced to sell bread to pay their debts. The result of this policy was the great famine of 1891-1892. Peasants in Russia have been exploited always, both under tsarism and communism. Many times the reason for the Russian famine was an ordinary crop failure. Last edited by Mosco Vito; March 2nd, 2018 at 05:19 PM.. |
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March 2nd, 2018, 05:24 PM | #523 | |
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I can tell you from own experience that each system has very specific advantages and disadvantages. Life in the West, though with real bananas, is no picnic as well. It is only possible to improve our current system by replacing own systemic disadvantages by systemic advantages of others. Not by ignoring them. Thesis + antithesis → synthesis. This is one of the core theorems of Marxist theory. |
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March 2nd, 2018, 05:41 PM | #524 | |
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Possibly so but I have no desire to read Marx or his theories. The world has moved on a lot since he died and 19th/20th century ideologies need to adapt to those changes and it's a trite phrase but maybe we need a New World Order, one that is neither Marxism nor greed powered Capitalism.
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March 2nd, 2018, 07:20 PM | #525 |
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I've got a question to the American members.
Do you consider your American Amish as a collectivist community? 1) If no, why? 2) If yes, did they suffer of frequent famine in the USA? |
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March 2nd, 2018, 07:51 PM | #526 | |
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The Soviet Union collectivizes: famine China collectivizes: famine North Korea collectivizes: famine Cuba collectivizes: famine Cambodia collectivizes: famine Venezuela collectivizes: famine. The total number of dead from this is in the tens of millions. Its an atrocity. How much more evidence do you need? Oh, by the way, you even have States like Poland, which never collectivized their agriculture (between '48 and 56 there were a few attempts, but they were rejected). No collectivization= no famine. It kind of comical -- you spout ideological BS like "Famine occured during transition or because of the international division of work." These are words. Tens of millions of starved people are evidence that your notions are wrong. The ideas you favor, when put into practice in the real world produce famine, reliably and repeatably. Notice that countries like Russia and China have abandoned collectivism -- and guess what? Now they don't starve. What a coincidence. As I noted before, the fact that Venezuelans are starving is a staggering indictment of collectivism. Venezuela has the world's largest petroleum reserves, a lot of money. Yet they're starving. Meanwhile, neighboring Colombia-- much poorer in natural resources-- is getting fat. Even Mexico, poorer than Venezuela, and which has a disaster of a government and a near civil war with the Narcos, Mexico is getting fat. In the modern world, Collectivism is about the only policy prescription that produces starvation. To find other starving people, you have to look to places with complete state failure and civil conflict-- Sudan and Somalia, for example. Sooner or later, pretty much nation which collectivizes agriculture has to reverse their policy and permit private markets, because collectivization is a policy that reliably produces starvation, even in rich countries like Venezuela. Last edited by deepsepia; March 2nd, 2018 at 09:22 PM.. |
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March 2nd, 2018, 09:40 PM | #527 | ||
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The farmers pool for some things, but still own private property and the harvest from their land is theirs to dispose of as they see fit. If you are looking for an example of American farmers banding together to fight the evil big capitalists, the Grange movement is far more appropriate: https://www.gilderlehrman.org/conten...-movement-1875 Quote:
They get together for some things, like raising a barn, but that is not collectivism, it is just common sense, why not get everybody together for a couple of days to build a barn rather then have one guy spend a couple of months doing it all on his own, which would really cut into his other farm work? Then he helps out on his neighbors barns, as needed. Ditto if there is a fire, some Amish around here had a big fire and the rest of the Amish community chipped in to rebuild their house quickly. This sort of thing is seen more as "doing religiously good deeds to support the community" than collectivism. You sure won't find any atheist Amish. They are quite serious about the way they are supposed to live according to God, and some people around here get quite annoyed at their horses and buggies sharing the same roads with automobiles.
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March 2nd, 2018, 10:02 PM | #528 | |
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No commissar showed up with guns and said "Comrade, your land belongs to the people, and you will now work it as they command". People come and go from religious or social communities like the Amish or Kibbutzim as they please-- and these communities have never been more than a small percentage of the agriculture in their respective nations. Some are efficient, some not-- but no one ever suggested banning private agriculture, and indeed these communities are privately owned by the community itself, not by the State. These communities all sell their products on markets. The state doesn't distribute oranges from Israel or milk from the Amish-- they operate as businesses, selling to other businesses. In your "theory" there are no markets; instead another commissar decides that food from collective farm A will be transported to city B-- inevitably what happens is, as in Venezuela, it sits on a railroad siding rotting, while waiting for someone to move a piece of paper from one pile to the next. Your "theory" calls for FORCED collectivization and confiscation of all land from its owners, the allocation and distribution of food by commissars, with the threat of violence. That's what produces famine, over and over. Here's how it works under your "theory":
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March 2nd, 2018, 10:08 PM | #529 | |
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Your theory is so wrong that we only need to see one fact: In China from 1961 to 1997, the population grew from 600 millions to 1,2 billions. It doubled in 35 years. Explain me how a Communist country starving can more than double its population in 50 years? Chinese average longevity for men is the same as the American one. 69 years old. But to be honest, American women get a longer life expectancy than Chinese women... Famine have nothing to do with Marxism. It had to do with mistakes of undeducated dictators using a bad planning, but not with collectivism. But to be sure that your informations are not taken from propaganda, I'll ask to my Czeck, Polish, Ukrainian and Yugoslavian friends if they starved in the past. Two of them are huge ennemies of Sovietism. Last edited by Roubignol; March 2nd, 2018 at 10:28 PM.. |
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March 2nd, 2018, 10:14 PM | #530 | |
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