Communism. Good or bad. What do you really know about Communism?

[diamelsx]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

Venezuela sells about a third of its oil production to the US, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

so what if they're selling. If I could insert an Administration that will sell more at a cheaper price all the better.

Originally Posted by deepsepia

Venezuela is _starving_. This is in a country with greater oil reserves than Saudi Arabia

as I said in another post over two-thirds of the economy is going to private hands not public so trying to blame communism or socialism for the countries is sort of misplacing the blame.

Originally Posted by deepsepia

There's a monotony to "if a tree falls in the woods, its because the CIA cut it down".

They're also a long history of US military interventions in that region to validate those suspicions.

Originally Posted by deepsepia

There are plenty of countries which have nationalized their oil companies and run them competently --including Venezuela, long ago.

is Venezuela depended too much on oil revenues the subjected itself to the hardships of falling oil prices? Without a doubt. But does that also mean that the government now should be overthrown and a new one inserted? I say no.

Originally Posted by deepsepia

But the wannabe Fidelistas Chavez and Maduro, have utterly wrecked the nation's economy, and wrecking PDVSA is really an extraordinary own goal. PDVSA was nationalized in 1976, by the way-- but then competently and professionally run until Chavez came to power. PDVSA was so successful that it actually bought a US oil refiner, Citgo. So far from a "yanqui invasion" -- before Chavez, Venezuela was buying up petrochemical infrastructure in the US.

Its staggering that a country which vast oil exports has managed to mismanage their industry so grievously that they've fallen by %50. And no, its not a depletion issue-- Venezuela has more proven reserves than anyone else, by a long shot.

These folks have managed to bungle the straightforward task of pumping oil out of the ground -- or having someone else do it for you-- and cashing the check.

That's pretty astonishing.

funny, people always want to see me or talk about how great things were in Venezuela before Chavez came to power but if you look at the numbers like say poverty rates infant mortality rate poverty rates for the time periods and question you have a hard time supporting that narrative.

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by diamelsx

funny, people always want to see me or talk about how great things were in Venezuela before Chavez came to power but if you look at the numbers like say poverty rates infant mortality rate poverty rates for the time periods and question you have a hard time supporting that narrative.

You might check the current famine in Venezuela.

Again, this is a nation with greater oil reserves than Saudi Arabia, and they can't feed their people.

They're pretty much the only nation in the hemisphere where people have a hard time getting enough to eat, save perhaps Haiti-- if you look at much poorer nations in nearby Central America, people are getting fat.

Chavez and Maduro have managed to screw up two of the simplest things, feeding people and cashing checks.

See: "Venezuelans report big weight losses in 2017 as hunger hits"

CARACAS (Reuters) - Venezuelans reported losing on average 11 kilograms (24 lbs) in body weight last year and almost 90 percent now live in poverty, according to a new university study on the impact of a devastating economic crisis and food shortages.

The annual survey, published on Wednesday by three universities, is one of the most closely-followed assessments of Venezuelans’ well being amid a government information vacuum and shows a steady rise in poverty and hunger in recent years.

Over 60 percent of Venezuelans surveyed said that during the previous three months they had woken up hungry because they did not have enough money to buy food. About a quarter of the population was eating two or less meals a day, the study showed.

Last year, the three universities found that Venezuelans said they had lost an average of 8 kilograms during 2016.

This is a staggering failure for a government in peacetime.

See:
https://www.caracaschronicles.com/20...1/encovi-2017/

[Enrico32]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

See: "Venezuelans report big weight losses in 2017

They simply accepted the "capitalist way of eating."

Don't the UN and WHO bemoan being fat??


On the serious side, no one in Venezuela supports total redistribution of all to all, and nobody switches to the Indian lifestyle in forest. Population growth doesn't stop either.
So, basically, people don't do anything to improve the situation.

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by Enrico32

They simply accepted the "capitalist diet."

Don't the UN and WHO bemoan being fat??

They're starving

That's not a joke.

In this world, to screw up an economy so badly that you can't get calories on the shelves is a sign of catastrophic failure.

You're quite right that even in poor countries we have a growing problem with obesity -- because its so easy for an even minimally functional society to deliver calories to people.

Chavez and Maduro can't even do that . . .

its staggering.

[diamelsx]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

You might check the current famine in Venezuela.

been there done that, I've been getting conflicting reports on what's really happening in that area.

Originally Posted by deepsepia

Again, this is a nation with greater oil reserves than Saudi Arabia, and they can't feed their people.

They're pretty much the only nation in the hemisphere where people have a hard time getting enough to eat, save perhaps Haiti-- if you look at much poorer nations in nearby Central America, people are getting fat.

When oil was high Venezuela did extremely well now over the last couple years when oils taking a hit they suffered like other oil-producing nations question on ask is is there anything else at play here. You know when they nationalize the oil some powerful parties were left out in the cold and that's too much money to be leaving on the table.
Again I ask you look up how Venezuela was going before Chavez took over the numbers don't lie.

Originally Posted by deepsepia

Chavez and Maduro have managed to screw up two of the simplest things, feeding people and cashing checks.

See: "Venezuelans report big weight losses in 2017 as hunger hits"

yes I've seen the story about the "weight losses" and understanding what's that played in who's on what side I have my suspicions. Just remember propaganda is a powerful tool if you have access to it.

Originally Posted by deepsepia

This is a staggering failure for a government in peacetime.

See:
https://www.caracaschronicles.com/20...1/encovi-2017/

You call this peace time. Wow 10 trillion-dollar oil Reserves and you think people ain't going to try to lie cheat steal and kill to get a hold of that? I would have to question your sanity if you would say "no"

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by diamelsx

You call this peace time. Wow 10 trillion-dollar oil Reserves and you think people ain't going to try to lie cheat steal and kill to get a hold of that? I would have to question your sanity if you would say "no"

But it is peacetime. No one is laying siege to Venezuela as happened to Leningrad. The lack of food is due to economic failure. How extreme the lack of food really is might be a debatable point but the economic failure is pretty hard to deny. Other oil economies are having it tough as well, for example Nigeria; but Venezuela is doing worse than any of the others.

[diamelsx]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

But it is peacetime. No one is laying siege to Venezuela as happened to Leningrad.

For all intensive purposes they've been having a civil war pretty much since Chavez took over and nationalized the oil and it's not been the poor starving people that Chavez and Maduro have been fighting but the middle in Upper classes.

Originally Posted by scoundrel

The lack of food is due to economic failure. How extreme the lack of food really is might be a debatable point but the economic failure is pretty hard to deny.

what you are calling economic failure I'm seeing it as economic sabotage there's a reason why Maduro is converting the currency

Originally Posted by scoundrel

Other oil economies are having it tough as well, for example Nigeria; but Venezuela is doing worse than any of the others.

Question: how many other countries are facing sanctions from the US on top of a civil war with the money interests?

[Estreeter]

Originally Posted by diamelsx

So you saying that capitalism is the problem here may be right. Remember / 2/3 of Venezuela's economy is in private hands.

Umm, no, I was actually not being specific with Venezuela, I was having a general shot at xyzde and his continual carrying on about poor people no matter where they live yet at the same time continually says we don't need much to survive and really don't need money at all is what my post was about.

If he was a real commie he wouldn't want oil from Venezuela exported to that industrial giant the good ol' U S of A and adding to global warming and uneven wealth distribution and more consumer products we don't need .... just his hypocrisy is what I like highlighting

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

They're starving

That's not a joke.

In this world, to screw up an economy so badly that you can't get calories on the shelves is a sign of catastrophic failure.

You're quite right that even in poor countries we have a growing problem with obesity -- because its so easy for an even minimally functional society to deliver calories to people.

Chavez and Maduro can't even do that . . .

its staggering.

I'm not discussing that Maduro is maybe an imbecile.
But the crisis in Venezuela has nothing to do with an egalitarian society.
Nothing.

I thought you was more intelligent than that to not falling in this stupid propaganda.

It's only because US administration has decided since 2001 to break down the price of oil all around the world.

The plan against Venezuela is the same as against Iran.

Saudi Arabia absolute monarchs are US friendly when egalitarian South American governments are far less and are fought by your administration since the 70's.

If Venezuelan people really starve and American government has nothing against egalitarian societies, why don't they send American food to Venezuela ?

A huge number of American population are dying because of obesity.
Today Mexican people are suffering the same problems of obesity, because they followed the American model of drinking Coke and eating canddies and pizzas.

It's time to stop the hypocrisy.

Originally Posted by scoundrel

But it is peacetime. No one is laying siege to Venezuela as happened to Leningrad. The lack of food is due to economic failure. How extreme the lack of food really is might be a debatable point but the economic failure is pretty hard to deny. Other oil economies are having it tough as well, for example Nigeria; but Venezuela is doing worse than any of the others.

Which debatable point ?
I've listen French journalists living in Venezuela.
They said that the lack of food is a Western plot with the help of the Venezuelan rightists.
Logically Venezuelan people could get enough food, but there is a form of embargo.
Don't tell me that Venezuela can't produce food (it was the program of Chavez with the help of Vietnamese authorities to be self sufficient in food, because he knew that the US plutocracy would try to starve them after he kicked out the American oil barons who didn't want to pay high taxes helping local people) or even more... buy food with all their oil.

Just look what is happening with your Brexit, because of the pressure of UE manipulated by lobbies.
That's similar.
Egalitarian societies and democracies are not respected by the global market.

Originally Posted by Estreeter

20 years of communism should have fixed that and made everyone equally poor

Venezuela is not Communist. Where did you read that ?
They try to be Bolivarianist.
That's not the same.

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by diamelsx

been there done that, I've been getting conflicting reports on what's really happening in that area.

No, there are no "conflicting reports".

The Government has stopped producing official health and poverty data, beyond Trump style press releases.

The only reliable data we're getting are from a group of Venezuelan Universities comes from Encovi ( = Encuesta de Condiciones de Vida ). ENCOVI is produced by the Fundacion Bengoa together with the major Universities and hospitals in Venezeula.
if you read Spanish, you can find the reports here, together with methodology:
https://www.fundacionbengoa.org/encovi/


They show that more than %80 of the population is living in poverty, and that was before this massive devaluation of the currency.

There is no "conflicting report", except in the way that if you check in with Fox and Friends, you'll get a "conflicting report" that Donald Trump is a big reader.

Originally Posted by diamelsx

When oil was high Venezuela did extremely well now over the last couple years when oils taking a hit they suffered like other oil-producing nations question on ask is is there anything else at play here.

Oil is at $70 a barrel, a historically good price. What's more significant for Venezuela is that their oil production has fallen by %50. This is directly attributable to government policy, Chavez and especially Maduro replacing -- and indeed arresting-- petroleum engineers and replacing them with soldiers in running the oil company.

Originally Posted by diamelsx

yes I've seen the story about the "weight losses" and understanding what's that played in who's on what side I have my suspicions. Just remember propaganda is a powerful tool if you have access to it.

This "propaganda" comes from Venezuelan universities and social service organizations. You're adopting a Trump tactic "if the news says something I don't want to hear, its not real"

Marxists -- and totalitarians of all stripes-- often do that. Stalin claimed that stories of famine in Ukraine were lies, so there's your "conflicting reports" for you. There's a fundamental defect in your "conflicting reports" tactic:

Where is the authoritative Venezuelan government assessment of social conditions? What survey have they performed, and where can you find it?

If you want to look at the ENCOVI reports, they're here:
https://www.fundacionbengoa.org/encovi

So where do I find "conflicting reports"

Originally Posted by diamelsx

You call this peace time. Wow 10 trillion-dollar oil Reserves and you think people ain't going to try to lie cheat steal and kill to get a hold of that? I would have to question your sanity if you would say "no"

Again, Venezuela has always sold oil to the US. It still does. They own refining facilities in the United States, the old Cities Services, which they bought when the country was being run competently -- and when the oil company was nationalized, but operated on normal commercial principals.

Venezuela could sell twice as much oil as its producing today (they have historically), indeed they have huge reserves, they could produce and sell much more than that. Their reserves are LARGER than Saudi Arabia, #1 in the world.

As to the notion of "taking over the oil" -- that claim is often made. Was made about Iraq, for example. Did the US "take over" the Iraqi oil? No, Iraqi oil is owned by the Iraqi National Oil Company, and contracts to foreign companies, mostly not US, a very large Chinese and Russian presence, a very small US one. Same is true in Libya, by the way-- the largest foreign companies are Italian, Egyptian, Russian and French, not US.

So the conspiracy - think "Its big oil trying to get their hands on " -- just doesn't wash.