The NFL and NBA thread

[qwerty007]

Originally Posted by clonevs

they are clearly far and away the number one sport in the country if not the world (yes soccer is big...but the Super Bowl destroys World Cup)

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_15236814

2006 World Cup viewership was 26 BILLION..., which is more that 400 MILLION AVERAGE per game....and that is with games like Poland v Costa Rica and Angola v Iran. Now I know that the US is the center of the universe , but C'MON MAN!!! There's a reason why Man U is the richest franchise in the world!!

(It isn't even close...viewership of 6 billion people v 300 million. There are 300 million REGISTERED MAN U SUPPORTERS!!, alone)

...and this coming from a Steelers fan.

Back to the Vick thing;

I thought he was on a short leash (pun intended), but with Goodell you never know. Good article to read:

http://www.cbssports.com/print/colum...-bar;btn-print

[tygrkhat40]

Originally Posted by clonevs

No, not surprised. I think Goodell's modus operation is a heavy hammer. He used it on Vick, Pacman and Roethlisberger. I think he punishes harshly and tries to send a message and get the players themselves as well as the organization to deal with the players and try and curb that type of behavior.

The interesting thing with Vick is that the Eagles didn't just dump him, which leads me (at least) to believe he really was innocent of wrongdoing. Bad judgement notwithstanding.

I think the NFL basically has this mindset in a nutshell;
they are clearly far and away the number one sport in the country if not the world (yes soccer is big...but the Super Bowl destroys World Cup)
that being said the fanbase is so, so tolerant...it almost comes down to a mindset of ....as long you don't murder, or attempt murder (Ray Lewis, Pacman)...or rape (Roeberger)....or torture animals (Vick).......as long as you don't do that stuff which REALLY rocks the boat.....then, ehhhh you know it all works out. But because of baseball and Bonds/McGwire demolishing records....clearly using PED's......in the NFL if you test positive you will get disciplined.

The NFL is so vast an empire today...they can take alot and still shine on Sundays. They could have a huge scandal this week and opening wknd in September would still dwarf all other sports. And they'll likely have a strike next spring...then comeback and have less than 1/4 of the damage baseball had.


My opinion

As far as Goodell using the hammer, he's using the power of the commissioner's office the way it should. His predecessor, Paul Tagliabue, made himself irrelevant when he fined players as little as $7,500 for vicious, borderline illegal (not just on the field, but on the street) hits and fined Brian Urlacher $100,000 for wearing a non-sponsored hat at a Super Bowl function.

Baseball and PED's? Hypocrites. McGuire, Sosa, Clemens, Bonds, et al are demonized for the "alleged" use of PED's, which were not banned by MLB at the time, yet an admitted cheater is already in the Hall of Fame. And people laugh at Gaylord Perry's doctored pitches.

And if there is no football in 2011, it'll be a lockout, not a strike. I would like to believe that the owners and the players will work it out, but I know Santa Claus is a myth. Sports owners and players are collectively not the brightest bunch around.

Speaking of which, the most ignored sports story right now is the real possibility that both the NFL and NBA will lockout the players in 2011. Think of it, no pro football or pro basketball at this time next year.

[qwerty007]

Originally Posted by tygrkhat40

As far as Goodell using the hammer, he's using the power of the commissioner's office the way it should. His predecessor, Paul Tagliabue, made himself irrelevant when he fined players as little as $7,500 for vicious, borderline illegal (not just on the field, but on the street) hits and fined Brian Urlacher $100,000 for wearing a non-sponsored hat at a Super Bowl function.

Baseball and PED's? Hypocrites. McGuire, Sosa, Clemens, Bonds, et al are demonized for the "alleged" use of PED's, which were not banned by MLB at the time, yet an admitted cheater is already in the Hall of Fame. And people laugh at Gaylord Perry's doctored pitches.

And if there is no football in 2011, it'll be a lockout, not a strike. I would like to believe that the owners and the players will work it out, but I know Santa Claus is a myth. Sports owners and players are collectively not the brightest bunch around.

Speaking of which, the most ignored sports story right now is the real possibility that both the NFL and NBA will lockout the players in 2011. Think of it, no pro football or pro basketball at this time next year.

Ti-Cat, time for a QOTD:

What is a FAIR Collective bargaining agreement?

You don't have to get too specific, just outline some parameters. What do you think about:

- Rookie Salary Cap
- Free agency after X years
- Franchise Tag
- Guaranteed contracts
- Signing bonuses
- Performance based incentives
- Conduct policy
- Drug testing
- Salary cap
- Retiree benefits

[tygrkhat40]

I'm in favor a a rookie salary cap, free agency after X years, conduct policies, and retiree benefits. I understand the reasons for drug testing, but it goes against the grain of personal liberty (the old security vs. freedom argument).

Guaranteed contracts and performance incentives are double-edged swords. Too many players have gotten the guaranteed money and let their performance go (AH of the Potomac Drainage Basin Indigenous Persons for one), and cheap owners and GM's who sit a player to prevent him from getting the bonus. And I think the same could be said of signing bonuses. Although, back in the day some bonuses were creative. When Marty Schottenheimer signed with the Bills out of college, his signing bonus was a rear-window defogger. A big deal back in the late 60's.

[keefriff]

Originally Posted by tygrkhat40

As far as Goodell using the hammer, he's using the power of the commissioner's office the way it should. His predecessor, Paul Tagliabue, made himself irrelevant when he fined players as little as $7,500 for vicious, borderline illegal (not just on the field, but on the street) hits and fined Brian Urlacher $100,000 for wearing a non-sponsored hat at a Super Bowl function.

Baseball and PED's? Hypocrites. McGuire, Sosa, Clemens, Bonds, et al are demonized for the "alleged" use of PED's, which were not banned by MLB at the time, yet an admitted cheater is already in the Hall of Fame. And people laugh at Gaylord Perry's doctored pitches.

And if there is no football in 2011, it'll be a lockout, not a strike. I would like to believe that the owners and the players will work it out, but I know Santa Claus is a myth. Sports owners and players are collectively not the brightest bunch around.

Speaking of which, the most ignored sports story right now is the real possibility that both the NFL and NBA will lockout the players in 2011. Think of it, no pro football or pro basketball at this time next year.

No pro basketball, for me, not that big of a deal. But no pro football would be a serious buzzkill. I'm with you in that I hope the two sides can get together and make a deal that benefits everyone including the fans. I don't know if any of you guys listen or watch Mike and Mike on ESPN but they have been having some really good conversations about this issue w/ D. Smith the head of NFLPA and the guy who does PR on this issue for the NFL. I can't remember his name I think it is Jeff Goss or something. Anyways, it has been pretty interesting to hear what their respective issues are. They are both working the spin but still pretty enlightening. It sounds like the NFL wants to expand to an 18 game schedule and eliminate 2 preseason games. The players at this point are oppossed to this idea. Also at play is rookie pay scale with both sides agreeing that something needs to be done but can't agree on the parameters. Also HGH testing is on the table with the NFL insisting on it and players agreeing for the need but balking at the vaildity of the testing proceedure being proposed. Certainly there are other issues but these seemed to be some of the main ones. Both guys had a coherent and reasoned argument for or against each issue. I don't know if they have podcasts of it but it was interesting to hear both of them articulate their stances.

Now with that being said, Jack (the Assassin) Tatum passed away yesterday at the age of 61. May he rest in peace. I don't know if everyone hear is old enough to remember him but let's just say he brought it hard during games. Longtime player for the Oakland Raiders in the '70's. Infamous perhaps for paralyzing Darryl Stingley w/ a clean hit in 1978. The guy was a great and greatly feared player. Check out the video below of some his best work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJrDYQwwbuY

Oh and one more thing....training camp opens on Friday for the Vikes.

[qwerty007]

Originally Posted by keefriff

Now with that being said, Jack (the Assassin) Tatum passed away yesterday at the age of 61. May he rest in peace. I don't know if everyone hear is old enough to remember him but let's just say he brought it hard during games. Longtime player for the Oakland Raiders in the '70's. Infamous perhaps for paralyzing Darryl Stingley w/ a clean hit in 1978. The guy was a great and greatly feared player. Check out the video below of some his best work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJrDYQwwbuY

Oh and one more thing....training camp opens on Friday for the Vikes.

Yah - RIP Tatum...along with Lyle Alzado. You guys can now go line up against Mike Webster in that big football field in the sky.

I think there is something special when your defense gets a 'name':

Pittsburgh: Steel Curtain

Minnesota: Purple People Eaters

Denver: Orange Crush

[keefriff]

Originally Posted by qwerty007

Yah - RIP Tatum...along with Lyle Alzado. You guys can now go line up against Mike Webster in that big football field in the sky.

I think there is something special when your defense gets a 'name':

Pittsburgh: Steel Curtain

Minnesota: Purple People Eaters

Denver: Orange Crush

Agreed. It just doesn't seem like the nicknames are what they once were.

Dallas: Doomsday Defense

Jets: NY Sack Exchange

Rams: Fearsome Foursome

Those were the days

[tygrkhat40]

Both the Eagles and Jets have been known as "Gang Green," Atlanta's one year wonder, the "Grits Blitz," Kansas City's "Redwood Forest" and the long-time nickname of the Bears, "the Monsters of the Midway."

[grossnex]

Originally Posted by qwerty007

Ti-Cat, time for a QOTD:

What is a FAIR Collective bargaining agreement?

You don't have to get too specific, just outline some parameters. What do you think about:

- Rookie Salary Cap
- Free agency after X years
- Franchise Tag
- Guaranteed contracts
- Signing bonuses
- Performance based incentives
- Conduct policy
- Drug testing
- Salary cap
- Retiree benefits

OK, I'm a little late for the game. I slept like a rock . Qwerty my brother, I'm glad you put rookie salary cap 1st on your list. To me, this is the most contentious issue facing the NFL. It's one of those rare instances where both players & management want something to get done about it, so I think it will get done. I think it's absolutely ridiculous that a player drafted in the 1st round can get paid the same as someone who's been in the league for a decade. Why should a 20 year old kid get paid the same as Tom Brady or Peyton Manning? These guys have MVP awards & Super Bowl titles on their resume.

The next 4 issues on your list can be remedied with going softer on the salary cap. I would like to see the NFL go more like the NBA. I see nothing wrong with being able to go over the cap to sign a player that your organization drafted out of college. Signing bonuses can be eliminated (as far as cash payouts) & players would have to take less money to sign elsewhere. I'm not a big fan of guaranteed contracts. They are the scourge of MLB (Mo Vaughn & Carl Pavano), so I think all the sports leagues should just take a look there to see what happens.

The next 3 issues on your list are no brainers to me. The NFL has to have some sort of conduct policy, performance incentives are a great way to keep any employee motivated & drug testing absolutely needs to be done. The NFL has far more guys on steroids than the average person would like to admit. Remember Korey Stringer ( I know you do keefriff)? How does a 27 year old kid die of heat stroke on the practice field?

To me the NFL is the one sports league who should be giving their players pensions. Most of these guys are dealing with medical issues from their playing days after they retire.

But, don't worry NFL fans. I would be shocked if there's no football in 2011. The issues surrounding their CBA are much easier to work out than the NBA. The NFL has the Lockout Year of 1987 to remind them how much revenue they'll lose with replacement players taking the field for roughly half of a season. That year was too painful for me to watch. The NBA on the other hand is heading for disaster. I can see an entire year lost due to the players trying to have contracts more like baseball than what they currently have.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by grossnex

I'm glad you put rookie salary cap 1st on your list. To me, this is the most contentious issue facing the NFL. It's one of those rare instances where both players & management want something to get done about it, so I think it will get done. I think it's absolutely ridiculous that a player drafted in the 1st round can get paid the same as someone who's been in the league for a decade. Why should a 20 year old kid get paid the same as Tom Brady or Peyton Manning? These guys have MVP awards & Super Bowl titles on their resume.

NFL is an intensely physical sport and very strictly a game for young men. Experience (especially experience of winning) gives you and edge in all sport but where is "The Hill" in NFL? When will Tom Brady or Payton Manning be over the hill? However I am sure it cannot be right for an unproven newcomer to be on the same money as a seasoned pro who is still in the physical prime of his life but is also armed with winning experience. It doesn't happen in any sport that I am familiar with, here across the Pond. It is usually when you can show a track record of exceptional performance at the highest level that people start to want to buy your contract and wave obscene amounts of money at you, and take away all the common sense values which got you to that level in the first place.

Originally Posted by grossnex

The next 3 issues on your list are no brainers to me. The NFL has to have some sort of conduct policy, performance incentives are a great way to keep any employee motivated & drug testing absolutely needs to be done. The NFL has far more guys on steroids than the average person would like to admit. Remember Korey Stringer ( I know you do keefriff)? How does a 27 year old kid die of heat stroke on the practice field?

To me the NFL is the one sports league who should be giving their players pensions. Most of these guys are dealing with medical issues from their playing days after they retire.

Since money seems to be the root of all evil in NFL as well as life, the conduct policy would best be enforced as part of the Collective Bargaining Agreement, not with nominal fines, but with the cancellation of real salary. Front-loaded contracts such as in the Haynesworth case are perverse incentives to act like a sociopathic child, because it saves you working for the cash you've already pocketed. Would you pay a builder 50% up front to build your extension and simply wait for him to turn up and start working? Or even worse, would you pay him the other 50% when he is only half way through the build?

I actually understand the concerns of players on mandatory drugs testing: some very funny things have occurred in athletics where athletes are subjected to compulsory testing and yet some countries (China) seem slightly less reliable about it than others and individual athletes can find their reputations are ruined in a Kafka-like process of private trial, where they aren't even represented and public verdict. The Diane Modahl case was a good example: her drugs test eventually was discreditted when it was shown the Portuguese laboratory didn't store her samples in a fridge but left them out in 35 degree summer heat to go contaminated. If I were clean and playing NFL, I'd still have a worry in the back of my mind at every drugs test, not of being caught but of being wrongly accused and publically shamed when I am innocent. The answer must surely be open and public audit of the testing as well as open and public test results from regular testing of the players. The integrity of the players is being judged and they have a right to insist that the testing must have integrity too.

Pensions should perhaps be built into players contracts but on a fixed contributions basis rather than a fixed benefits basis. The contributions should be straight from the players earnings. In effect pensions are deferred salary anyway and the point here really is that many players earn megabucks and yet are so feckless with their money that they wind up on skid row within 5 years of retiring. A pension clause in their contract would protect some players from themselves. But no way should the liability be carried in a club's balance sheet creditors (thats "payables" in US accounting-speak) because there isn't the mutual loyalty relationship coming from the players side to warrant such an act of noblesse oblige on the part of the club.