Communism. Good or bad. What do you really know about Communism?

[Roubignol]

One of the most absurd facts with money, is the difference of rates between different categories of jobs or in same jobs in different companies or between genders doing the same jobs.

Distribution of money through wages is so artificial and incoherent.

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

One of the most absurd facts with money, is the difference of rates between different categories of jobs or in same jobs in different companies or between genders doing the same jobs.

Distribution of money through wages is so artificial and incoherent.

"Artificial and incoherent"?

What is "artificial" or "incoherent" about supply and demand?

Its not artificial -- meaning its not some chosen policy-- and its easy to understand.

There are things that may be unfair -- people will pay to hear Justin Bieber sing, and yet will not pay to hear me sing!-- but that is neither "artificial" nor "incoherent"

We've always had mechanisms other than wages to distribute money to people, for reasons of justice or just preference

So, for example: the Earned Income Tax Credit is a device in the US; basically instead of paying income taxes, the IRS sends low income workers a check-- that's effectively a negative income tax.

Many have thought about a "guaranteed basic income" -- it doesn't have the "earned income" requirement of the EITC, but is otherwise similar. I believe Finland was experimenting with it recently.

[bowlinggreen]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

I'm not sure that you read this analysis made by a French humanist called Albert Jacquard (a hero for my generation). Link here

Initial errors made by Castro... yes, the failure of Cuban Communism was all Castro's fault.

This is the problem with theorizers that sit theorizing in cafes and university libraries, they expect everything to be perfect.

But to err is human, and power corrupts.

Find me the human who will not begin to abuse his office after a little while in power, if he is given absolute power. I dare you.

Even you would be corrupted. If I gave you a country and said "make it communist, you have absolute power", within a year you'd go from an apologetic theorist to a man dressed in fatigues strutting about waving a pistol and exhorting the people to betray the non-Communist wreckers and saboteurs to your police so that you could punish them.

[sobaka]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

One of the most absurd facts with money, is the difference of rates between different categories of jobs or in same jobs in different companies or between genders doing the same jobs.

Distribution of money through wages is so artificial and incoherent.

Right, instead lets do this kind of grading of job worth based on communism, everyone gets shit wages, but different classes get access to stores with better products. That way the nomenklatura gets much better selection and quality than the riff raff.

Or we could do it by paying shit wages to doctors (after all most of these were women under communist systems). Of course that just means the doctors charge (na leva) under the table or accept gifts for basic care.

[Enrico32]

Originally Posted by bowlinggreen

That still doesn't solve the problem of how to build a working communist society for the long term.

Because a good portion of humanity is going to be either (1) too greedy or (B) too lazy to selflessly devote themselves to the welfare of your Utopian state.

Which is why sooner or later all "communists" get out the guns and the truncheons and form secret police and gulags to keep everyone in line.

How can you possibly preserve individual rights? Some people regard it as their right to amass wealth, if they are clever enough to do so. And what about those who wish to preserve their right not to participate in your experiment, period? I don't want to be a communist, are you going to confiscate my grain and chickens and chase me through the woods with guns when I say no? Because that's what you'll have to do.

Argh. You totally misread what the real communism stands for.

{{ Regimes of 20th century were "communist" only in name. Their policies were simply continuation of monarchies upon which they grew in the first place. Russia - Tsar into Lenin, Yugoslavia - King into Tito, China - Emperor into Mao. Some socialist regimes even left their official kings, as Italy, Romania, Cambodia. }}

Real communism is against all supreme force. It transfers power back to the People - by which, really, all should be free to behave as they please. Remember: Anarchists split from Communists comparatively late, originally they were together.

Regarding whether "true communism" is possible. Look at Mennonites and Amish. The whole world lived like this once upon time. Thomas Jefferson praised such life and envisaged it as the core of America.

[Estreeter]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

There are things that may be unfair -- people will pay to hear Justin Bieber sing, and yet will not pay to hear me sing!

You've got that ass about actually I'd pay to watch you sing rather than Justin Bieber In fact I'd almost, stress almost, pay to watch xyzde read the Communist Manifesto in a public than watch Justin sing ....... Almost

Originally Posted by deepsepia

"Artificial and incoherent"?

Ever watch My Cousin Vinny and the scene in the courtroom where Vinnies whole defence statement was "Everything he just said is bullshit"

[bowlinggreen]

Originally Posted by Enrico32

Regarding whether "true communism" is possible. Look at Mennonites and Amish. The whole world lived like this once upon time. Thomas Jefferson praised such life and envisaged it as the core of America.

The Amish are not communists. They own property, buy and sell on the free market, and they have a social hierarchy, which is led by the church elders. If you break their rules, you will get shunned.

Having a community barn raising does not make you a communist.

In light of this and other remarks made by you and xyz, I think what you want is not so much actual communism but an escape back to the world of ago, since you both seem to dislike the institutions of the modern world, with all its excess of money people, advertising and mass production of goods.

We are stuck with it though, if you want billions of people to be able to eat and keep warm when it's cold.

You are welcome to try the "simple" life - grow a beard, learn the bible and convert, and snuggle in with an Amish community, but I warn you, it's a lot rougher life than you expect. If you are used to sitting in cafes and arguing Marx over coffee it's going to be a shock getting up before dawn and putting in 12-14 hours of hard labor every day.

[Estreeter]

Originally Posted by bowlinggreen

You are welcome to try the "simple" life - grow a beard, learn the bible and convert, and snuggle in with an Amish community, but I warn you, it's a lot rougher life than you expect. If you are used to sitting in cafes and arguing Marx over coffee it's going to be a shock getting up before dawn and putting in 12-14 hours of hard labor every day.

I'd like to see the cafe socialists milk a cow by hand
I'd like to see the cafe socialists cut down sugar cane
I'd like to see the cafe socialists harvest their own coffee beans

Then make their own damn coffee

BTW BG, hope you didn't feel left out but I'd pay to watch you sing also

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

"Artificial and incoherent"?

Absolutely artificial and incoherent.

When I was younger I collaborated in an energy industry, I never understood why an electronics technician earned 5% more than a mechanic technician?
The industry needed both technicians to work.

One of my friends was a sound engineer and worked in a TV crew. He told me that he earned 15% less than the cameraman.
Why? Just listen at a TV interview which has sound problems, it's useless, apart if you are able to read on the lips of the interviewee.

Why nurses are badly paid compared to doctors, when they spent their days to clean shit, care at ill people and often know as much as doctors after several years of experience?

Why people who clean the houses, the streets, the toilets are badly paid, when directors would never want to do these jobs?

That's insane.

If people like you are unable to live without money, at least you could agree that everybody earn the same amount of basic wages.

Let's say 5000$ a month everywhere on this planet.
That's how I perceive what means real justice.

Why do you so hardly defend injustice?

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

"Artificial and incoherent"?

Absolutely artificial and incoherent.

When I was younger I collaborated in an energy industry, I never understood why an electronics technician earned 5% more than a mechanic technician?
The industry needed both technicians to work.

One of my friends was a sound engineer and worked in a TV crew. He told me that he earned 15% less than the cameraman.
Why? Just listen at a TV interview which has sound problems, it's useless, apart if you are able to read on the lips of the interviewee.

Why nurses are badly paid compared to doctors, when they spent their days to clean shit, care at ill people and often know as much as doctors after several years of experience?

Why people who clean the houses, the streets, the toilets are badly paid, when directors would never want to do these jobs?

That's insane.

If people like you are unable to live without money, at least you could agree that everybody earn the same amount of basic wages.

Let's say 5000$ a month everywhere on this planet.
That's how I perceive what means real justice.

Why do you so hardly defend injustice?

Originally Posted by bowlinggreen

Initial errors made by Castro... yes, the failure of Cuban Communism was all Castro's fault.

So... according to you that justified that American leaders imposed embargoes against a population who wanted to try an egalitarian society?
That's what pointed Jacquard. Why to be so wicked against Cuban people?
That's nice to pray Jesus Christ in front of 300 million American voters to get their vote and to be absolutely rotten in his soul and starving million of people who lived under a corrupted dictatorship before Castro.

We all know what is really happening now in Venezuela.
That's our same horrible leaders who impose economic sanctions against this country, but sell weapons at Saudi Arabian monarchs.

Originally Posted by sobaka

Right, instead lets do this kind of grading of job worth based on communism, everyone gets shit wages, but different classes get access to stores with better products. That way the nomenklatura gets much better selection and quality than the riff raff.

Or we could do it by paying shit wages to doctors (after all most of these were women under communist systems). Of course that just means the doctors charge (na leva) under the table or accept gifts for basic care.

Russian people were not spiritually ready to become REAL Communists.
I agree with Bowlinggreen, the Communist goal is too difficult for 90% of human beings.