The Military History Thread

[palo5]

Originally Posted by rupertramjet

Rome's Worst Military Defeat?...

Must be Cannae, surely. No one terrified Rome like Hannibal

[rupertramjet]

Originally Posted by palo5

Must be Cannae, surely. No one terrified Rome like Hannibal

That is true. Or is it! In this battle Roman tactics failed completely, ten thousand prisoners twenty five thousand dead. Infantry against cavalry, commander who was insane with grief, soldiers without water in the dessert, what few cavalry he had either wiped out, or run and his own son killed in the early stages.

This forum is about debate!

[scoundrel]

The loss of Quinctilius Varus and his legions in the Teutoberg Forest in 9AD was quite a disappointment to the Emperor Augusus at the time, so much so that Legio XVII, XVIII and XIX never appeared in the Roman rolls again. The German tribes captured their eagles, and without an eagle, there was no legion. After the Battle of the Allia in 387BC, the victorious Semones captured and sacked Rome. This didn't happen again for another 794 years.

But the daddy may have been the Battle of Adrianople in 378AD. Two years earlier, the Visigoths, fleeing from the Huns, asked for and received asylum. Sadly, the Romans didn't treat them terribly well. They were quickly stripped of what little valuables they had left, and reduced to selling their women and children into slavery to buy provisions. Inevitably, they chose war over submitting to a subtle form of genocide. The Emperor Valens met them in the field and suffered a shattering defeat; he was killed and so were two thirds of the army of the Eastern Empire. By this stage, the Roman Empire was no longer strong enough to replace over 30,000 men. Valens' successor, Theodosius I, solved the problem of the gaping hole in the defence of his Balkan frontiers by doing a deal with the Visigoths who had just tonked Valens and his army; they enrolled as Roman auxiliaries (they were notable cavalrymen) and, for a fee, looked after the frontier for him.

It worked for a while, but inevitably a wastrel and stupid Emperor came along, (Honorius, son of Theodosius) who broke the bargain, even murdering those Visigoths who had settled peacefully in Italy and murdering one of the last really great Roman generals, Stilicho, for foolish political reasons which had nothing to do with looking after Rome.

The Western Roman Empire unravelled and Rome fell to the Visigoths in AD410; the sack was not quite the brutal affair depicted in medieval art. The people were not murdered and the churches were not even damaged; the Visigoths were Christians too. One Roman chronicler recorded that a Roman maiden captured by the Visigoths attempted suicide to preserve her "honour" and her captors promised not to rape her if she would cease and desist; they kept their promise and later she married one of her captors of her own free will. These were very odd "barbarians". Alaric took prisoner Aelia Gallia Placida, Emperor Honorius's own sister, and treated her courteously. He died only a few months afterwards of a fever (possibly malaria) and Ataulf took on the job of King of the Goths. He married Aelia Gallia Placida in AD411 and they had a son three years afterwards. Interestingly, Rome was intermarrying with the Goths and other barbarians, who actually were at least as civilised as the Romans and probably more civilised.

The fall of Rome in AD 410 wasn't quite the cataclysm it was made to seem in legend; it was more like a change of management. But the Roman empire lost its grip after the defeat at the Battle of Adrianople in AD378 and never regained its ability to look after itself without barbarian mercenary help.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by rupertramjet

...In this battle Roman tactics failed completely

History teaches that Rome was taught a lesson by The Master. I think history is right - Hannibal was far superior. One of the best field commanders of all time, imho. He probably would have beaten Alexander, and maybe even the Khan

...ten thousand prisoners twenty five thousand dead...

I thought Rome had 80.000+ casualties

[bombermouse]

Originally Posted by palo5

History teaches that Rome was taught a lesson by The Master. I think history is right - Hannibal was far superior. One of the best field commanders of all time, imho. He probably would have beaten Alexander, and maybe even the Khan



I thought Rome had 80.000+ casualties

Numbers of combatants and numbers of casualties, usually shifting sands in ancient accounts.

[rupertramjet]

It is interesting that so many of us seem to have favourite leaders. Personally I am a great fan of Genghis Khan. His first great act was to unite the Nomadic tribes of South East Asia, then conquer one of the largest Empires known to History. At his death the Empire stretched from the Caspian to the Japanese sea. Under his successors it grew larger reaching across Europe to Bulgaria and that is some acheivement!

[Ennath]

Worst Roman defeat that no one ever heard of. Arausio, 105 BC. Two Roman armies were sent to deal with the invading Cimbri and Teutons. Because one army was under a relatively low-born consul, the other commander, a haughty aristocrat, refused to cooperate unless he was in overall command, despite the law giving command to the consul. Both armies were defeated and slaughtered in detail. The number of 80,000 men lost has also been given for this defeat. It lead to the rise of Marius and the recruiting of armies from Rome's urban, landless poor, dependent on their generals for their livelihood.

[Ennath]

During the American Revolution Britain attempted to hire 20,000 troops from Catherine the Great of Russia, who demurred.

The first person known to have used a parachute was a M. Blanchard, who jumped from a balloon in August 1785.

The Battle of Navarino (October 20, 1827), was the first occasion on which British and French warships fought on the same side since the 1670s.

In April of 1986 the Council of the Isles of Scilly, an archipelago 30 miles west of Land's End, England, concluded a treaty of peace with the Netherlands, thus ending a technical state of war that had existed since 1651, when the Dutch got tired of having their ships victimized by Scillian "false-lighters," who would erect decoy beacons to lure ships onto rocks to be plundered.

The Byzantine Emperor Nicphorus I was defeated at the Battle of Verbitza Pass (July 25, 811) by the Bulgar Khan Kroum, who had his skull encased in silver, so that he could use it as a drinking cup.

[rupertramjet]

Originally Posted by Ennath

The first person known to have used a parachute was a M. Blanchard, who jumped from a balloon in August 1785.

Bastard! If he had failed perhaps that would have saved me a few weeks of HELL!!

Originally Posted by Ennath

In April of 1986 the Council of the Isles of Scilly, an archipelago 30 miles west of Land's End, England, concluded a treaty of peace with the Netherlands, thus ending a technical state of war that had existed since 1651, when the Dutch got tired of having their ships victimized by Scillian "false-lighters," who would erect decoy beacons to lure ships onto rocks to be plundered.

The Scillonians were not the only 'false lighters', It was a habit in many Cornish (and other) Coastal Areas, and despite the glamourous image of smugglers and wreckers that we Cornish Kids grew up with, these where hard and evil people.

There is a Pub at Lamorna in West Cornwall called 'The Wink' if you wen in there in those days, a wink would show you where in the market for contraband.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by rupertramjet

Bastard! If he had failed perhaps that would have saved me a few weeks of HELL!!



The Scillonians were not the only 'false lighters', It was a habit in many Cornish (and other) Coastal Areas, and despite the glamourous image of smugglers and wreckers that we Cornish Kids grew up with, these where hard and evil people.

There is a Pub at Lamorna in West Cornwall called 'The Wink' if you wen in there in those days, a wink would show you where in the market for contraband.

I've holidayed in Penzance and I had a drink in the Lamorna Wink. It is a lovely part of the world, but while they play up the fun part for the tourists, it's shady past is much darker than only smuggling. It includes piracy as well as wrecking.

As regards the declaration of war by Holland on the Scillonians, the Parliament defeated the Royalist forces in Cornwall in 1646, but a Royalist garrison held out in the Scillies and sustained itself through privateering against English commerce loyal to the Parliament (basically anything English bigger than a waterlily). By 1651, it was committing wholesale piracy against Dutch as well as English commerce. In 1652, the Parliament passed a Navigation Act, forbidding commerce between English colonies and Europe to be carried in Dutch ships. The Dutch didn't make a lot of money out of this trade anyway, so might have kept their cool; but English pirates used this as an excuse to attack Dutch shipping generally, and before long the first Anglo-Dutch war was under way.

Ironically, Admiral Robert Blake had reduced the Royalist garrison in 1651, partly in response to legitimate Dutch complaints. He landed a naval party in Tresco and captured the Royalist battery there. It was badly positioned, too high up and he was able to sail in below the maximum depression of its guns. He swung the gun around and pointed them at St Mary, the main settlement in Scilly, and made Governor Grenville an offer he couldn't refuse. Once the Royalists had packed up and left, Blake built a new battery on Tresco, close to the shoreline which controlled the main anchorage of Scilly much better. There wasn't much piracy in Scilly after that, though the shining of false lights went on a lot longer.

I visited Tresco on a day trip nearly 10 years ago (how fast the time goes); it is a lovely and tranquil place. Blakes's fortification is still there; it was being repaired when I saw it. They call it "Cromwell's Castle" now. Some of the ruins of the Royalist battery survive but I didn't go up there. The main attraction on Tresco is the Abbey Gardens, which included a display of figureheads of ships wrecked on the rocks of the Scillies, dozens of them. Not all were lured onto the Western Rocks by false lights, but some probably were.