President Donald Trump's Final Days...

[IC Hunt]

Originally Posted by Brian249x

What is encouraging is the way our institutions are containing Trump. If he thought that there was resistance before, he will really dislike the congressional probes into his administration that will start next year.

Wow what a dangerous topic to have discovered on my first day!

What is discouraging is that Trump might prove that a our (US) presidents have way too much power when they don't care what people think about them.

People could just start refusing to honor congressional subpoenas; Trump could pardon them for refusing to honor the subpoenas and round and round. The second congress tries to jail somebody for refusing a subpoena, they are pardoned.

He probably wouldn't be re-elected but he'll continue on in his bubble at Trump tower without ever suffering any consequences for his crimes (Mueller investigation, financial etc). What if he pardons himself on the last day?

[ShutUpLutz!]

Just when you thought Trump and Pence couldn't POSSIBLY come across as bigger dickbags for skipping out on WWI ceremonies in France and at Arlington National Cemetery in Virginia, it comes out that members of the French military participated in the ceremonies at Arlington. They came all the way from France to do this, yet neither the President or Vice President of the country whose soldiers are buried in THAT VERY CEMETERY could be bothered to make the trip.

Not by helicopter.

Not by limo.

Not by walking.

And I'm not even going to start in on how hate crimes in the US are up over 20% since 2017 or how the US military has a growing and serious problem with white supremacists/ racist bigots in the ranks, a number of whom are only in the military to learn various fighting techniques and strategies after which they either go AWOL or set out to get deliberately discharged for feigned mental illness or bad behavior.

Oh damn I actually did start in on that.

[ShutUpLutz!]

Originally Posted by IC Hunt

Wow what a dangerous topic to have discovered on my first day!

What is discouraging is that Trump might prove that a our (US) presidents have way too much power when they don't care what people think about them.

People could just start refusing to honor congressional subpoenas; Trump could pardon them for refusing to honor the subpoenas and round and round. The second congress tries to jail somebody for refusing a subpoena, they are pardoned.

He probably wouldn't be re-elected but he'll continue on in his bubble at Trump tower without ever suffering any consequences for his crimes (Mueller investigation, financial etc). What if he pardons himself on the last day?

Well no one has refused any of Muellers subpeonas, well except for those Russians who are out of reach and currently sucking at Putin's massive teats somewhere in Moscow.

And actually there is a LOT of time, effort, work and most importantly MONEY that is spent if someone refuses to honor a congressional subpoena.

First it has to go the floor of congress who has to vote to hold the person(s) in Contempt of Congress, then Congress MAY but they don't have to send it on to the Justice Department which gets to sit around and decide if prosecution for 2 US Code 192- Refusal of witness to testify or produce papers is warranted. If they decide yes, and if the Justice Department is inclined to spend several hundreds of thousands of dollars the case goes to a grand jury and if they determine that the evidence warrants a trial, which they nearly always do, like 98% of the time, the person(s) are indicted and tried in federal court.

This is exceedingly rare, the last time someone was actually indicted for contempt of Congress was 1983 and in a neat coincidence that proves that yes indeed Washington DC is a hellish humid swamp of political corruption it involved someone working for the mother of current Supreme Court justice Neal Gorsich.

[IC Hunt]

Originally Posted by ShutUpLutz!

Well no one has refused any of Muellers subpeonas, .......
This is exceedingly rare, the last time someone was actually indicted for contempt of Congress was 1983 .....

I am always surprised that no one has refused any of Mueller's subpoenas; I guess that one of Trump's biggest liabilities: his lack of honesty and trustworthiness, works against him here. His associates don't trust him either; don't trust him to pardon them.

I watch both Msnbc and Cnn and one of the shows, I believe it is Msnbc Deadline with Nicole Wallace (Republican worked for Bush), had a jar at one point and people had to put a dollar in every time someone used the word unprecedented when talking about Trump.

1983 means nothing to me, precedent has no meaning when talking about Trump; Nicole Wallace has drummed that into my head!

Let's be grateful that Trump can't pardon people for state crimes or I think we would see a lot less cooperation with Mueller.

[HugoHackenbush]

Originally Posted by ShutUpLutz!

Just when you thought Trump and Pence couldn't POSSIBLY come across as bigger dickbags for skipping out on WWI ceremonies in France and at Arlington National Cemetery in Virginia, it comes out that members of the French military participated in the ceremonies at Arlington. They came all the way from France to do this, yet neither the President or Vice President of the country whose soldiers are buried in THAT VERY CEMETERY could be bothered to make the trip.

Not by helicopter.

Not by limo.

Not by walking.

Well, of course Trump couldn't walk there... he's got bone spurs, remember?

But in all fairness, I used to live in DC, and Arlington Cemetery is a good distance from the White House, enough to take up four Metro (subway) stops. But I get your point.

Last year Pence went to the Arlington ceremony because Trump was out of the country. This year Pence was out of the country, but Trump doesn't go, even though he was in the country, and as you point out, right around the corner.

Actions speak louder than words, my friends.

[Arturo2nd]

I understand that people are scared by having someone who may well be a criminal in the White House. This is not the first time the electorate has goofed. But in reading the Constitutional Convention Debates it becomes quite clear that Hamilton, Madison, and company understood very well that selfish and unscrupulous characters would try to seize power and way lay the government. You should remember that when Nixon tried to refuse the subpoena to turn over the tapes the Supreme Court voted his appeal down unanimously. Trump may think the Court will protect him, but I am betting that Roberts and Alioto will persuade Thomas, Gorsuch, and Kavanaugh to assert the independence and power of the SCOTUS and follow long established legal traditions.

The House of Representatives has the primary power under the Constitution. The President has the power to execute the laws. Career military officers have their own traditions and mindset and have a great aversion to meddling in civilian affairs regardless of the little fascists in the ranks. (I had a grandfather and three uncles that were career officers. Grandsons on each side are currently serving and deceased members of my generation were careerists.) The military tradition only reinforces the natural protections of the design to contain demagogues.

Again and again, the courts and bureaucracy have pushed back against Trump and now the voters have elected a House of Representatives that includes Democrats from some of the most conservative districts in the country. Trump is an inept clown and ill prepared to deal with the forces coalescing against him.

Have you noticed that two suits for violations of the emoluments laws have been repeatedly given the green light by conservative judges and the state of New York's case for illegal use of the Trump Foundation is still proceeding? Michael Cohen has confessed in open court to conspiring with Trump to violate campaign funding laws. It takes time to prepare evidence in these kind of cases, but the FBI and career prosecutors are not going to roll over and play dead and the state of New York is not acting friendly either. It is an open question as to whether Whittaker's appointment was legal and if he actually can reign Mueller in. If he tries, the matter will wind up in court.

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by Brian249x

What is encouraging is the way our institutions are containing Trump. If he thought that there was resistance before, he will really dislike the congressional probes into his administration that will start next year.

I am less sanguine -- but I'm pleased that there are people cheerier about our prospects than I am.

My fear is that Trump has accurately judged the malignancy of enough of the American public that rule of law means little. Look at Lindsay Graham's about face from principled opposition to slavish bootlicker. There is an appetite in the country for a "strongman", a throng that would cheer if a Presidential bodyguard punched a reporter in the head.

How far are we from the kind of news story that you hear all over the autocratic world -- "The body of Kent Bradshaw, a reporter for XYZ News who had reported on Trump finances, was found shot in the back of the head on the C&O Canal towpath."

I knew, very tangentially, a guy who I think was the first reporter killed by the Putin clique, Paul Klebnikov (probably not killed on Putin's orders, but rather one of the mafias associated with him, but it doesn't matter).

Trump walks up to this line, teases it, tests it, all the while mocking and diminishing important principles of American public life. How important is it to protect the life of an "Enemy of the People" to the man who boasted he could shoot someone in the middle of 5th Avenue and his supporters would stand by him?

Trump is the maestro of the trial balloon. "Just what can I get away with" and "just how much further can I push it" -- he's masterful at ratcheting up authoritarianism, normalising the indefensible, never apologising, just pushing further.

[ShutUpLutz!]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

I am less sanguine -- but I'm pleased that there are people cheerier about our prospects than I am.

My fear is that Trump has accurately judged the malignancy of enough of the American public that rule of law means little.

Racism.

The increase in openly racist and bigoted people PROUDLY marching/strutting around shouting "JEWS WILL NOT REPLACE US!!!!" by tiki torchlight on the campus of one of America's great universities.

There have been God knows how many words written/spoken/shouted about how America is 'less racist country now then it was "x" number of years ago."

I don't believe that for a second.

Segregation is hardwired into animals including humans. Zebra herds have been seen driving out albino zebras from the rest of the herd, crows have been seen ganging up and murdering a crow who had a red spot put on it by researchers. Students in cafeterias have been seen to self segregate by race over time.

EVERY country in the world is racist/bigoted, it's just the degrees that differ.

The late 1950's and 1960's saw the rise of the Civil Rights movement in the US, which coincided with a number of Supreme Court decisions which struck down a number of Jim Crow/segregation laws.

Brown Vs Board of Education struck down school segregation and the concept of "Separate but Equal, and said that the schools must integrate 'with all deliberate speed.'

Now that is a hell of a vague time frame, which many states in the South jumped all over. Virginia simply closed down it's entire school system for a year rather than integrate.

Racism and bigotry in the United States has never lessened or gotten weaker, it just went undercover/underground, much like members of the SDS did. Occasionally it would pop up like when the Nazis won a Supreme Court case that allowed them to march through a predominately Jewish neighborhood in Skokie, Illinois. One of the main lawyers who worked on the case for the Nazis was a Jew.

And there has been violence, the shootout between the Klan/Nazis and the american Communist Party that left several dead, the lynching of a black teenager in his front yard, James Byrd being dragged to his death behind a pickup truck, The neo-Nazi/white supremacist group The Order murdering liberal talk radio host Alan Berg in Colorado, The fatal standoff involving the family of Randy Weaver, who laughingly and gleefully admits on tape that he is very happy that one of his group murdered a federal marshall, the Freeman dolts in Montana and Idaho, Oklahoma City, the Pulse night club shooting, the Parkland high school shooting earlier this year, Dylan Roof, the synagogue massacre in Pittsburgh.

The last few acts of violence have taken place either while Donald Trump was President or soon after he had announced and made that horrific speech about Mexico. I believe that speech let all the racists and bigots who had been hiding out in plain sight and who had been letting their racist filth out on private message boards and such, I think they saw that and saw that when it didn't immediately kill off Trumps candidacy, they said "Hey, maybe we CAN get out there and speak our mind."

And 3 years and some change later, here we are, a country that is more OPENLY divided than it has been since the late 1950's.

And it isn't gonna be an easy fix, not by a long shot.

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by ShutUpLutz!

Racism.

The increase in openly racist and bigoted people PROUDLY marching/strutting

Sadly I agree . . . It feels like there was a mob who wanted to say racist stuff, but had learned "you don't say that". Trump's given them the green light -- "go ahead, say it."

There's nothing but crickets as Trump calls brown people animals, and Steve King calls Mexicans "dirt". One brave Republican called out Steve King . . . a very lonely, soon to be ex-Republican if my fears are right.

Down in Mississippi, where they know a thing or thirty about impromptu public hangings, Senator Cindy Hyde-Smith, running against Democrat Mike Espy thought a public hanging joke would be in order.

Because its, you know, a fun memory for everyone.

[charliels531]

Originally Posted by ShutUpLutz!

Segregation is hardwired into animals including humans.

So is cannibalism, but we got over it.