The First World War

[Tmee2020]

Originally Posted by palo5

The biggest guns almost anywhere, and they don't use them. Wtf?

On the other hand, 30% of their ammo was dud if history books are correct

According to Von Sanders the Turks did take heavy losses from bombardment in the first two weeks. After that his policy was to deliberately dig their trenches as close as possible to the Allied trenches. That would give them protection because of the risk of the naval gunners shelling their own troops. Possibly the flat trajectory of naval gunnery made it less effective with the Turks able to shelter on the lee side of the heights.

The naval guns were less effective on the forts than you might expect too. Back in November a bombardment had blown up the magazine at Seddülbahir, one of the outer forts. After that the Germans and Turks were clever enough to make the main defence of the Dardanelles not the outer forts which stood up on the horizon, but the inner forts which were hard to see and even harder to hit.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by tmee2000

... Possibly the flat trajectory of naval gunnery made it less effective with the Turks able to shelter on the lee side of the heights...

I agree, but shouldn't they have known that? - the Germans did

What is the maximum elevation of those big guns, do you know?

[Tmee2020]

Originally Posted by palo5

I agree, but shouldn't they have known that? - the Germans did

What is the maximum elevation of those big guns, do you know?

I don't think they did know. Not at the start anyway. But remember at the start it was going to be a naval operation with the troops an army of occupation. The whole campaign just grew, and those making the decisions weren't there and didn't understand the terrain.

I would imagine that maximum elevation would equal maximum range, so about 45º. But the problem was with the elevation the range is too great to be effective when the frontline trenches are so close. They couldn't lob the shells on the Turkish positions like howitzers could have done. In any case all they had were the naval guns.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by palo5

What is the maximum elevation of those big guns, do you know?

It varied between class of battleships. When HMS Renown and HMS Repulse were upgraded between the wars, their maximum gun angle was increased to 30 degrees, giving their main armament an increased effective range. HMS Warspite and HMS Barham were also modified to the same 15" Mark One (N) standard. HMS Warspite hit the Italian battleship Giulio Cesare at over 26,000 yards, which is between 14 and 15 miles (about 24-25 kilometers). Prior to modification, Renown and Repulse would have had shallower gun trajectories, similar to the obsolete Royal Sovereign class battleships.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_inch...rk_I_naval_gun

On a ship-board turret, a higher angle of fire would mean more recoil suffered directly by the hull of the ship and a shallower angle of fire would mean more recoil absorbed by the water outside the hull. This is why land-based guns could have higher angles of fire and could shoot further, even using the same gun.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by tmee2000

...The whole campaign just grew, and those making the decisions weren't there and didn't understand the terrain

... or their enemy

I would imagine that maximum elevation ...about 45º. But the problem was with the elevation the range is too great to be effective when the frontline trenches are so close...

45º seems too good to be true. I was thinking of the forts, and how the Germans addressed this problem (Belgium etc etc...1914). Also, Adm. Fisher is known to have had this problem before, because he attacked Egyptian forts with big navy guns without success in ca. 1880

[Ennath]

Originally Posted by palo5

Also, Adm. Fisher is known to have had this problem before, because he attacked Egyptian forts with big navy guns without success in ca. 1880

The occasion you're referring to is the bombardment of the Alexandria forts on July 11, 1882. The problem here was not just the guns, but the pitiful state of gunnery training in the Royal Navy at the time. Over 3000 shells were fired and a total of ten Egyptian guns were put out of action. The ammunition was rotten, too; about 50% of the shells fired malfunctioned in some way. The gunnery enthusiasts in the navy were disgusted and pushed harder for reforms, among them Fisher.
These problems had been largely fixed by 1915.

[Ennath]

May 13, 1897
Technology The first wireless message is sent over water, 3.7 miles over the Bristol Channel.

May 13, 1915
Western Front The French secure Bois le Pretre.
Eastern Front The Russian retreat in Galicia continues. On the Pruth, the Russians occupy Sniatyn.
Britain The sovereigns of the German states are struck from the Garter roll. The government decides to intern all aliens of military service age from enemy countries.

May 13, 1916
Western Front, Verdun Crown Prince Wilhelm, increasingly disillusioned with the Verdun offensive to the point of despair, receives orders from Falkenhayn to prepare for a new major offensive on June 1. A German attack near Le Mort Homme is repulsed.
Western Front, Elsewhere A German attack on British positions at Ploegsteert fails. The Escadrille Americaine, equipped with Nieuport fighters – worthy rivals of the Fokkers – makes its first patrol over the Vosges.
Caucasus The Turks repulse a Russian attack at Ashkale.
Britain The government formally authorizes the call-up of married men between the ages of thirty-six and forty-one.
Caribbean Faced with chronic instability and debts in the Dominican Republic, the United States occupies the country. There is some guerrilla opposition in the east lasting until 1921. The occupation ends in 1924.

May 13, 1917
Western Front The British finally secure Roeux and progress on Greenland Hill. A German attack near Rheims fails.
Russia General Kornilov, commander at Petrograd, and Minister of War and Marine Guchkov resign.
Mesopotamia Russian detachments on the Diyala retire into Persia.
World Affairs A Socialist Conference opens in Stockholm.

May 13, 1918
Central Powers Diplomacy Emperor Karl visits Berlin. He signs an agreement to cooperate with Germany in all matters political, military and economic, effectively signing away the empire’s sovereignty to a German-directed Mitteleuropa. He also, to the distress of his generals, promises to launch a major offensive in Italy. Borojevic insists that the army is incapable of anything more than a limited attack.

May 13, 1919
Turkey A Greek army lands at Smyrna to act for the Allies in western Turkey and preempt Italian advances. Long-standing hatreds lead to atrocities against Turkish civilians by the Greek troops. Venizelos dreams of a Greater Greece, encompassing much of Anatolia.
Canada Economic troubles and labor’s hopes of reform lead to the Winnipeg General Strike. The government considers it the work of radicals and sends in the RCMP. The strike is broken by June 26.
Estonia An offensive begins that destroys the Estonian Red Army and captures Pskov by the end of the month.

[Ennath]

May 14, 1915
Western Front French and Belgian troops make minor gains near Het Sas and Steenstraate.
Eastern Front On the San, Austrian and German troops take Jaroslav and Kielce. Russian troops take Kolomea.
Diplomatic Relations The United States presents a note to Germany on the Lusitania incident.
Britain The Times publishes a story on the “shell shortage” Although the government denies any such shortage, the fact is that all the belligerents are using up munitions, especially artillery rounds, faster than they can be produced; pre-war planning has underestimated the expenditures..
British Planning The War Council debates Gallipoli. Kitchener vents anger and dismay over the failure to date, while Churchill advocates sending reinforcements as the only viable option at the moment.

May 14, 1916
Western Front, Elsewhere There is fighting around the Loos salient.

May 14, 1917
Western Front The British gain near Gavrelle.
British Command Jellicoe becomes Chief of the naval Staff.
Britain There are several strikes.
Italian Front The infantry assault begins. Hill 383, near Plava, falls after a bloody fight. Zagora falls soon after. Attacks on Monte Santo are repulsed.
Macedonia After persistent assaults, the Serbs have managed to capture and secure the lower slopes of the Dobropolje Ridge.
Adriatic Sea During the evening, the Austrian naval offensive against the Otranto Barrage, commanded by Captain Miklos Horthy, opens with two destroyers attacking an Italian convoy of three merchant ships and a destroyer, sinking the destroyer and a merchantman and setting the other two merchant ships afire. Then three Austrian cruisers begin destroying the barrage itself, sinking 14 drifters out of 47 deployed and disabling 3 others. Hearing from Valona that the attack is in progress, Admiral Acton sails from Brindisi with the cruiser Dartmouth and a force of British, French, and Italian destroyers and cruisers to attack the Austrian ships. Although both sides draw blood, the Austrians manage to escape to the north, while the Dartmouth is badly damaged by a torpedo and one of the French destroyers sinks after hitting a mine. The night’s losses convince Italian Commander in Chief Luigi Cadorna that the net drifters cannot be protected during hours of darkness, so the Straits of Otranto each night will now be open to U-Boat passage.
Russia An All-Russian Muslim Congress demands national autonomy.
United States Treasury Secretary William McAdoo announces a bond issue of 2 billion dollars, termed the “Liberty Loan of 1917”.

May 14, 1918
Western Front Australian troops repulse a German attack near Morlancourt.
Adriatic Italian naval commandos penetrate Pola harbor, but fail to sink anything.

[knobby109]

Originally Posted by Ennath

The occasion you're referring to is the bombardment of the Alexandria forts on July 11, 1882. The problem here was not just the guns, but the pitiful state of gunnery training in the Royal Navy at the time. Over 3000 shells were fired and a total of ten Egyptian guns were put out of action. The ammunition was rotten, too; about 50% of the shells fired malfunctioned in some way. The gunnery enthusiasts in the navy were disgusted and pushed harder for reforms, among them Fisher.
These problems had been largely fixed by 1915.

Fact is that in peacetime actual gunnery practice would be ruled too expensive to be a routine occurrence.In fact the high-tech gunlaying and rangefinding equipment originally specified was dropped as a cost saving exercise. The thinking was that actual firing would take place at closer range but it's obvious to me that if you are going to get in close you could have been firing a lot earlier anyway.

[squigg58]

For those with access to the BBC iPlayer, I can recommend this programme which takes an interesting look at trench warfare on the Western Front. It features film taken from an airship shortly after the end of the War, and highlights the importance of aerial photohgraphy. There's a salutary lesson in why it's not a good idea to plant flower-beds, even well behind the lines!! Some nice flying shots of the Shuttleworth Collection's "Brisfit" too!

The programme was originally aired in 2010 so some may have seen it, although I must confess that I missed it first time around. It's available on iPlayer until 24th May.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...ar_from_Above/