Current Politics in the United Kingdom

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by palo5

We'll see. As I've always said, I think you're screwed in every scenario, unless Brexit is called off. Even with no-deal, you'll still have to pay the 39 billion, because if you renege almost no one in the world will do a trade deal with you. Not a good position to be in, and I can't imagine why you're enthusiastic about it. Maybe you could tell us?

1. Freedom ain't no bowl of cherries, as someone or other once said. But while I realise that being outside the EU is going to be a challenge, I think strongly that our future outside is preferable to our future inside.. At the worst, it is better to live humble as a free man than to live pampered as a slave. Being told what to do and how to live by others who are nothing and nobody to us is certainly not freedom, and you will be well aware that most countries outside the European Union do not allow this, including of course the Russian Federation.
2. I am extremely keen to take back our fishing grounds. The Keystone Cops could run them more sensibly than the EU has done. In addition, the blatant theft of Britain's fishing rights can be stopped once we leave, and access for other nations settled on a just and equitable basis.
3. I would also prefer to see the Common Agricultural Policy replaced by more sensible land management. Subsidies should not incentivise environmental damage.
4. I am in favour of paying the EU whatever is genuinely owed, but goodwill between countries is fragile and if Britain receives goodwill then she is going to be more amenable to paying this bill; and if Britain receives ill will, she will be not so willing.
5. I think Britain will have transition problems (as will the EU) but that the medium and long term future is probably better outside the EU than inside it. The EU is not quickly adaptable to economic change and I foresee a failure of the Euro and a reversion to national currencies somewhere in the future. The slowness of response and Hoover style monetarist "prudence" - not prudent at all - of the European Central Bank in 2009-10 was a warning. Britain can only reduce her exposure to the effects on European customer countries of this sclerotic approach to monetary policy by diversifying her trade relationships; EU single market and customs union trade rules make that strategy more difficult to implement than it should be.
6. Last, but not least, our Lords and Masters at Westminster have been doing everything in their power to try to make a mess of this process, on purpose. They will never stop doing this until Britain has left the building; and meanwhile their behaviour is causing real social and economic problems. Once we have left they will be much less able to cause trouble, particularly because Project Fear is all about uncertainty and we will no longer be shadow boxing.

[judy84]

An Italian point of view


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9cLwoTkWes




John Redwood: Lots of confusion & deliberate misinformation about trading under WTO.

Here are some facts:

http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2019/01/10/trading-under-wto-rules/ …



Peter Lilley also published an excellent pamphlet with more detail “30 Truths about Leaving on WTO terms”



See: https://globalbritain.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/GBLL-paper-30-Truths-Final-05.01.19.pdf …

[charliels531]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

[LIST=1][*]Freedom ain't no bowl of cherries, as someone or other once said. But while I realise that being outside the EU is going to be a challenge, I think strongly that our future outside is preferable to our future inside.. At the worst, it is better to live humble as a free man than to live pampered as a slave. Being told what to do and how to live by others who are nothing and nobody to us is certainly not freedom, and you will be well aware that most countries outside the European Union do not allow this, including of course the Russian Federation.

So you are currently a slave, and have been for forty years.

Are we allowed to say "bullshit" when we see it?

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by charliels531

So you are currently a slave, and have been for forty years.

Are we allowed to say "bullshit" when we see it?

Sure you are, but maybe you should visit an optician.

The EU is a totally undemocratic institution which makes important and far reaching decisions about how all member countries are governed and run. But we don't get to remove the people making these decisions no matter how much we dislike them. Slightly more than 90% of these people (called MEPs) are chosen by people from 27 other EU countries; but they make laws here in the UK. This is antithetical to freedom.

What if I would like to have a rational system of immigration controls? Any EU citizen can move to the UK and it is quite difficult for Britain to say anything against it. Millions of them have, and in many cases have contributed both to our prosperity and to our cultural life - but we as a country should have in principle the right to control this movement. We don't.

The EU determines our system of sales tax - called VAT. This is a matter which affects everyone everywhere in the EU; but the framework is not decided by national governments. Didn't you Americans once say something about "No taxation without representation"?

My point is that it is for the British people to govern Britain. No one else should do this. That is not a particularly strange principle. It lies at the heart of the US declaration of independence for example - or is that bullshit too?

[charliels531]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

My point is that it is for the British people to govern Britain. No one else should do this. That is not a particularly strange principle. It lies at the heart of the US declaration of independence for example - or is that bullshit too?

I am happy to live in a country where all the decisions you listed are made by groups of people 5,000 kilometers away from me, in a federal union of fifty states that grudgingly gave up what you seem to consider to be sovereignty. I have less to say about that than you do about the governance of the EU.

It sounds absurd to say that Washingtonians are slaves because we are governed by rules formulated across the continent.

Perhaps you should see the optician. You will soon have all the rights of a Moldovan, a condition you seem eager to embrace.

By the way, I am curious. In this thread you have been highly critical of Ms May. So you must have voted against the Tories, right?

[palo5]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

The EU is a totally undemocratic institution

That's complete nonsense, my friend. The EU is perfectly democratic, and could give the UK a few serious lessons. All MEPs are directly elected by PR. The Commission is approved by the EP, and the Council approves most other senior appointments. We know Cameron had a problem with Juncker, but he was outvoted -- that's democracy

While on the subject, does the UK have an elected head of state, or an elected upper house? Does it have a democratically elected parliament where all votes count? Or does it have a rigged system of "safe seats" where more than half the votes don't count? Is the PM or are any of the Secs of State elected for the position?

No to all questions, except question 3?

Lesson: do not say the EU is undemocratic, unless you have something constructive to say, and your own credentials are good

What if I would like to have a rational system of immigration controls?

You already have it -- the EU gives it to you. EU citizens can migrate to other member states, but the states (including UK) can ask them to leave after 3 months of migrating if they don't have work or a means of supporting themselves. Your problem is that you don't implement the rule, and don't have a population register, so you don't know who's in the country anyway. That's not the EU's fault, it's yours

The EU determines our system of sales tax - called VAT

Sori, that's BS. The EU does not set VAT rates for Member States. They set them themselves

My point is that it is for the British people to govern Britain

You always have governed Britain. The EU doesn't want to govern Britain. It just formulates rules that your country agrees to. In all cases they're sensible and agreed by majorities.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by charliels531

By the way, I am curious. In this thread you have been highly critical of Ms May. So you must have voted against the Tories, right?

Do all people who vote Republican support or approve of Donald J Trump?

You will also find in the UK many Labour supporters who quite rightly recognise that Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn is a tosser.

[DB83]

Methinks what Scoundrel was stating when he mentioned VAT is that the EU, through one or more of its directives, sets the standard minimum rate of VAT at 20% for all member states. All member states can also set a restricted lower rate.

So, as a member, in a way to boost the economy the Government can not set a lower rate than 20% (at one time it was at 8%).

Jeez. I have been out of this game for 16 years and now I am talking 'shop'

[judy84]

The European Union’s tax agenda has been clear for quite some time: from its tax bullying against Ireland in 2016, to the early introduction of a minimum VAT rate to its consistent attempts to introduce its own taxes – known in Brussels-speak as “own resources”.
There can be little doubt that the ultimate goal is for the EU to get its hands on tax policy in its entirety, harmonising taxes across the continent and eliminating tax competition between member states, while also introducing its own levies.
So far the plan has run up against the simple reality that changes to tax policy require unanimous agreement by all 28 (soon to be 27) member states. Indeed, taxes have always been one of the few areas where every country had to be on board with a proposal. For some time this has thwarted the EU’s ambitions in this key area – just recently, for instance, plans for a new digital tax were kiboshed by some smaller member states.


The votes on tax issues could in the future only require a qualified majurity opening up the possibility that Brussels – partnering with high-tax advocates in France and Germany among others, could finally pursue its dream of complete tax harmonisation – something that many have long feared, and that Brexiteers have warned about.


https://capx.co/beware-the-eus-attem...member-states/


https://www.values4europe.com/de/blo...new-taxes-169/

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by DB83

Methinks what Scoundrel was stating when he mentioned VAT is that the EU, through one or more of its directives, sets the standard minimum rate of VAT at 20% for all member states. All member states can also set a restricted lower rate.

So, as a member, in a way to boost the economy the Government can not set a lower rate than 20% (at one time it was at 8%).

Jeez. I have been out of this game for 16 years and now I am talking 'shop'

VAT is a very regressive and economically harmful tax and it is a structural enemy of economic growth in the European Union. At present, the EU gets about 12% of its income from VAT and 20% of this revenue stream comes from the UK.

Here the EU itself explains that it determines our system of sales tax. I never said that it sets the actual rate, merely that it sets the rules. The rules include a minimum standard rate.
https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_custom...what-is-vat_en

Is there anything you would like to retract about my comment being BS, Comrade Palo?