Major League Baseball thread - Page 6

**tygrkhat40** · April 8th, 2017, 01:21 PM

Brian, where did Stan Musial place? When the list of 100 Greatest Players of the 20th Century was compiled in 1999, MLB was mortified to discover that Musial wasn't on the list, so they dropped one player to put the man on the list.

**Arturo2nd** · April 9th, 2017, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tygrkhat40

Brian, where did Stan Musial place? When the list of 100 Greatest Players of the 20th Century was compiled in 1999, MLB was mortified to discover that Musial wasn't on the list, so they dropped one player to put the man on the list.

Gould placed Stan Musial 11th which is where he ranks on baseball-reference.com's WAR list. Somehow, this 8-year old kid living in a suburb of Oakland knew early on that Stan the Man was a great ballplayer.

Nowadays we are blessed with watching Mike Trout climb the rankings and wondering if Bryce Harper can join him. Clayton Kershaw should also bump some guys downward if he stays healthy. Kris Bryant, Manny Machado, Corey Seagar, and Noah Syndergaard are some players who show signs of creating legends.

**Arturo2nd** · April 11th, 2017, 12:44 PM

I have already mentioned concerns about comparing players of different eras and park effects on players records. Ty Cobb's ability to rack up 12 batting titles in the deadball era is mind boggling. He hit against licorice balls, shine balls and spitters with balls that were kept in play until the ushers couldn't retrieve them from the stands. Honus Wagner won 8 National League batting titles in the same conditions. Tris Speaker would play so shallow in center that he threw runners out at first. All of this created conditions where pitchers pitched many innings and had many complete games. We are told that pitchers threw the ball over the plate at less than full speed until a couple men got on base when the good fastballs and sharp curves would come out.

All this changed in 1920 & 21. First, improvements made the ball travel further. Second, defacing the ball and adding foreign substances were banned, plus new balls were constantly put in play after Ray Chapman was killed in 1921. A whole generation of pitchers had to adapt and the hitters put up many records that still stand. Pitchers who could consistently throw hard for nine innings were required, but such men are rare. Games were still played in the late afternoon. We really have to question something like Mel Ott's record of 512 home runs when 360 some were hit into the short porches of the Polo Grounds.

After World War II the game changes again. Night games become a regular occurrence until 20 years later most games are played at night. Air travel becomes common in the 1950s, leading to relocation of franchises, scheduling changes, disruptions of players biorhythms, and expansion. Integration brings men of color into the game, then waves of Latin players appear, and now we have Asian players on major league rosters. Relief pitchers begin to proliferate, improved nutrition and coaching have pitchers throwing much harder, surgical advances salvage careers, fielding improves, and hitters focus more on hitting the ball out of the park and less on making frequent contact.

So, I don't think we can compare today's game with the deadball era, or the 1920s & 30s. Even in the 1950s & 60s conditions were sufficiently different than they are today to make comparison inappropriate. We know performance has increased in other sports. I believe that it is safe to assume that there are more good players today than at any other time. The great players of the past would still be great, but they were competing against players of a much lower standard. It is much harder to consistently dominate today, which makes what Mike Trout is doing even more amazing.

The second issue I have with Gould's list is that no third baseman are included. Mike Schmidt ranks 26th on the WAR list. I believe he belongs in the list of the 25 greatest players of all time. He lead his league in home runs 8 times, second only to Babe Ruth's 12. He was also excellent defensively and had a lifetime on base percentage of .380.

There are also no catchers on the list. Catching is the most physically demanding position to play. The nature of the position suppresses batting statistics. There are 13 Third Baseman in the Hall of Fame and 15 Catchers, the lowest representations of any position, by far, relief pitchers excepted. This post is getting long. So I will address catchers, third baseman, and relief pitchers later.

**footstep** · April 13th, 2017, 06:01 PM

Brian , how about a book on Base Ball ?

What do you thing of fields of dreams , the movie(shoeless Joe Jackson...)?

**Arturo2nd** · April 15th, 2017, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by footstep

Brian , how about a book on Base Ball ?

What do you thing of fields of dreams , the movie(shoeless Joe Jackson...)?

I enjoyed it. Eight Men Out was pretty good,too, and Major League was really fun.

I recently read "Ty Cobb: A Terrible Beauty" and recommend it as a long overdue correction of Al Stump's hatchet job. Other books: "Glory of Their Times" by Lawrence Ritter is a treasure - reminiscences of deadball and 1920s players; "We Played the Game" by Danny Peary - year by year memories of players from the period 1946 to 1964; "Crazy '08" by Cait Murphy - the incredible 1908 pennant races; "Babe: The Legend Comes to Life" by Robert W. Creamer; "Ted Williams: The Biography of an American Hero" by Leigh Montville - bet you didn't know that his mother was Mexican, plus Teddy Ballgame had a truly imaginative and awe inspiring collection of curses.

I didn't care for Charles Alexander's biography of John McGraw or Dick Bartell's autobiography "Rowdy Richard." I know I'm leaving a lot out. Oh, Earl Weaver, Whitey Herzog, and Durwood Merrill had some good ghost written books.

**footstep** · April 15th, 2017, 06:58 AM

Stephen King in his novel Blockade Billy also leads us to old times in that sport.
A must read.

**Arturo2nd** · April 15th, 2017, 10:48 AM

I have friends in the sabermetric community who advocate for players like Bobby Grich, Darrell Evans, Dwight Evans, or Ted Simmons for induction into the Hall of Fame. Career numbers count for a lot with veterans committees and Simmons was regarded as a star while in St Louis. So I think he will eventually be inducted. The BBWAA seems to be using different criteria as shown by their election of Jim Rice. To me, Grich, the two Evans, or Graig Nettles were not really perceived stars of the type that their omission leaves blank spots in the historical baseball narrative. Various veterans committees have made some controversial and dubious choices.

It seems clear that a player may be a star or have an outsized influence over a short period. Other players fly under the radar while helping their teams win a lot of games without showing up in the counting stats of batting average, home runs or RBIs. I would appreciate feedback from other members on how we tell a star from a someone who is merely a very good player.

~~bigtrain45~~ · April 16th, 2017, 02:11 PM

Many years ago (i'm 66 now) I got into the habit of asking myself what players in the game I'm watching now, whether in person or on tv, were going to be Hall of Famers. Some were easy because of how much they stood out from everyone else on the field, like Griffey Jr., Ichiro, Cal Ripken, Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux, and others. Right now Trout is the clear leader among current players, but Miguel Cabrera is a certainty, as is Kershaw. Going around the diamond, among current catchers Buster Posey is the best bet, Cabrera at 1B, Cano at 2B, Beltre at 3B, SS is loaded with stars, like Correa, Lindor, Seager, and others, and in the outfield Trout, maybe Harper, and a few other marginal possibilities. Among pitchers Kershaw is a lock, with Verlander, Bumgarner, Scherzer, and a few other possibles.

**Arturo2nd** · April 16th, 2017, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigtrain45

Many years ago (i'm 66 now) I got into the habit of asking myself what players in the game I'm watching now, whether in person or on tv, were going to be Hall of Famers. Some were easy because of how much they stood out from everyone else on the field, like Griffey Jr., Ichiro, Cal Ripken, Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux, and others. Right now Trout is the clear leader among current players, but Miguel Cabrera is a certainty, as is Kershaw. Going around the diamond, among current catchers Buster Posey is the best bet, Cabrera at 1B, Cano at 2B, Beltre at 3B, SS is loaded with stars, like Correa, Lindor, Seager, and others, and in the outfield Trout, maybe Harper, and a few other marginal possibilities. Among pitchers Kershaw is a lock, with Verlander, Bumgarner, Scherzer, and a few other possibles.

Beltre, Cabrera and Albert Pujols are locks. It is almost inconceivable that Kershaw won't make it. Trout just needs to play a few more years. As good as Mike Trout has been, he is just entering the age range where players usually have their best seasons. Cano's resume is already good enough for election. Chase Utley is playing out the string, but has a Hall of Fame resume. Joey Votto needs to keep hitting.

We really are living in a golden age of shortstops. It will be fun to watch. The changes in pitchers usage means that new standards will be needed for starters, or almost no modern starters will be voted in.

~~bigtrain45~~ · April 17th, 2017, 04:54 PM

People, Yankee fans especially, talk about DiMaggio's 56-game hitting streak being the most difficult record to break, but lots of players at least have a shot at it. The records that are really safe, because of the way pitching has changed, are Cy Young's 511 wins and Walter Johnson's 110 shutouts. Will any pitcher even start 511 games in their career again? Will any pitcher have 110 complete games ever again? I seriously doubt it.

View Poll Results: Which team is the most despised in Major League Baseball?
New York Yankees	93	72.09%
Texas Rangers	1	0.78%
Boston Red Sox	18	13.95%
California Angels	2	1.55%
Los Angeles Dodgers	11	8.53%
Philadelphia Philles	2	1.55%
Atlanta Braves	4	3.10%
San Francisco Giants	2	1.55%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 129. You may not vote on this poll

April 8th, 2017, 01:21 PM	#51
tygrkhat40 Long Suffering Bills Fan Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: The City of Good Neighbors Posts: 9,669 Thanks: 304,243 Thanked 153,135 Times in 9,629 Posts	Brian, where did Stan Musial place? When the list of 100 Greatest Players of the 20th Century was compiled in 1999, MLB was mortified to discover that Musial wasn't on the list, so they dropped one player to put the man on the list. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

April 15th, 2017, 10:48 AM	#57
Arturo2nd Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Oakland, California, United States. I have a beautful view of the BART tracks and I-980 Posts: 8,955 Thanks: 103,061 Thanked 151,627 Times in 8,946 Posts	Request for Discussion I have friends in the sabermetric community who advocate for players like Bobby Grich, Darrell Evans, Dwight Evans, or Ted Simmons for induction into the Hall of Fame. Career numbers count for a lot with veterans committees and Simmons was regarded as a star while in St Louis. So I think he will eventually be inducted. The BBWAA seems to be using different criteria as shown by their election of Jim Rice. To me, Grich, the two Evans, or Graig Nettles were not really perceived stars of the type that their omission leaves blank spots in the historical baseball narrative. Various veterans committees have made some controversial and dubious choices. It seems clear that a player may be a star or have an outsized influence over a short period. Other players fly under the radar while helping their teams win a lot of games without showing up in the counting stats of batting average, home runs or RBIs. I would appreciate feedback from other members on how we tell a star from a someone who is merely a very good player.

April 11th, 2017, 12:44 PM	#53
Arturo2nd Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Oakland, California, United States. I have a beautful view of the BART tracks and I-980 Posts: 8,955 Thanks: 103,061 Thanked 151,627 Times in 8,946 Posts	I have already mentioned concerns about comparing players of different eras and park effects on players records. Ty Cobb's ability to rack up 12 batting titles in the deadball era is mind boggling. He hit against licorice balls, shine balls and spitters with balls that were kept in play until the ushers couldn't retrieve them from the stands. Honus Wagner won 8 National League batting titles in the same conditions. Tris Speaker would play so shallow in center that he threw runners out at first. All of this created conditions where pitchers pitched many innings and had many complete games. We are told that pitchers threw the ball over the plate at less than full speed until a couple men got on base when the good fastballs and sharp curves would come out. All this changed in 1920 & 21. First, improvements made the ball travel further. Second, defacing the ball and adding foreign substances were banned, plus new balls were constantly put in play after Ray Chapman was killed in 1921. A whole generation of pitchers had to adapt and the hitters put up many records that still stand. Pitchers who could consistently throw hard for nine innings were required, but such men are rare. Games were still played in the late afternoon. We really have to question something like Mel Ott's record of 512 home runs when 360 some were hit into the short porches of the Polo Grounds. After World War II the game changes again. Night games become a regular occurrence until 20 years later most games are played at night. Air travel becomes common in the 1950s, leading to relocation of franchises, scheduling changes, disruptions of players biorhythms, and expansion. Integration brings men of color into the game, then waves of Latin players appear, and now we have Asian players on major league rosters. Relief pitchers begin to proliferate, improved nutrition and coaching have pitchers throwing much harder, surgical advances salvage careers, fielding improves, and hitters focus more on hitting the ball out of the park and less on making frequent contact. So, I don't think we can compare today's game with the deadball era, or the 1920s & 30s. Even in the 1950s & 60s conditions were sufficiently different than they are today to make comparison inappropriate. We know performance has increased in other sports. I believe that it is safe to assume that there are more good players today than at any other time. The great players of the past would still be great, but they were competing against players of a much lower standard. It is much harder to consistently dominate today, which makes what Mike Trout is doing even more amazing. The second issue I have with Gould's list is that no third baseman are included. Mike Schmidt ranks 26th on the WAR list. I believe he belongs in the list of the 25 greatest players of all time. He lead his league in home runs 8 times, second only to Babe Ruth's 12. He was also excellent defensively and had a lifetime on base percentage of .380. There are also no catchers on the list. Catching is the most physically demanding position to play. The nature of the position suppresses batting statistics. There are 13 Third Baseman in the Hall of Fame and 15 Catchers, the lowest representations of any position, by far, relief pitchers excepted. This post is getting long. So I will address catchers, third baseman, and relief pitchers later.

April 13th, 2017, 06:01 PM	#54
footstep Lost luggages? Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: France Posts: 7,268 Thanks: 92,097 Thanked 86,801 Times in 7,170 Posts	Brian , how about a book on Base Ball ? What do you thing of fields of dreams , the movie(shoeless Joe Jackson...)?

April 15th, 2017, 06:58 AM	#56
footstep Lost luggages? Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: France Posts: 7,268 Thanks: 92,097 Thanked 86,801 Times in 7,170 Posts	Stephen King in his novel Blockade Billy also leads us to old times in that sport. A must read.

April 16th, 2017, 02:11 PM	#58
~~bigtrain45~~ Banned! Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Savannah GA Posts: 16,142 Thanks: 47,756 Thanked 215,718 Times in 16,027 Posts	Many years ago (i'm 66 now) I got into the habit of asking myself what players in the game I'm watching now, whether in person or on tv, were going to be Hall of Famers. Some were easy because of how much they stood out from everyone else on the field, like Griffey Jr., Ichiro, Cal Ripken, Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux, and others. Right now Trout is the clear leader among current players, but Miguel Cabrera is a certainty, as is Kershaw. Going around the diamond, among current catchers Buster Posey is the best bet, Cabrera at 1B, Cano at 2B, Beltre at 3B, SS is loaded with stars, like Correa, Lindor, Seager, and others, and in the outfield Trout, maybe Harper, and a few other marginal possibilities. Among pitchers Kershaw is a lock, with Verlander, Bumgarner, Scherzer, and a few other possibles.

April 17th, 2017, 04:54 PM	#60
~~bigtrain45~~ Banned! Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Savannah GA Posts: 16,142 Thanks: 47,756 Thanked 215,718 Times in 16,027 Posts	People, Yankee fans especially, talk about DiMaggio's 56-game hitting streak being the most difficult record to break, but lots of players at least have a shot at it. The records that are really safe, because of the way pitching has changed, are Cy Young's 511 wins and Walter Johnson's 110 shutouts. Will any pitcher even start 511 games in their career again? Will any pitcher have 110 complete games ever again? I seriously doubt it.