Communism. Good or bad. What do you really know about Communism?

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by Mal Hombre

Farmers didn't want it because they wanted to run Their own farms the way they wanted.They wanted to grow what they wanted,Sell what they could and hand the farm on to their children.Under Collectivization,They and their children would be merely labourers on their own land,Having to grow what they were told and often having to see the crops taken to feed other people elsewhere,Leaving them with meagre rations.

The term soviet first meant a council of workers, peasants and soldiers of progressive ideas in the Russian Empire, taking power in a local organization (a factory, a city, a province ...) from 1905.
From October 1917, power is held by "People's Commissars", approved by the Congress of Soviets (delegates elected by the Soviets), led by Lenin.
Subsequently, in the Soviet Union, the "soviet" was officially a legislative and executive body of elected delegates, at several levels (local, municipal, republican or federal).

They decided to collectivize the country.

You are English and your fellow citizens have decided to quit EU.
It seems that you do not agree with them. So, what will you do against popular decision? Are you ready to start a hunger strike?

BTW In 1936 Constitution, everybody had the right to have a small piece of land to grow food.

ARTICLE 7. Public enterprises in collective farms and cooperative organizations, with their livestock and implements, the products of the collective farms and cooperative organizations, as well as their common buildings, constitute the common, socialist property of the collective farms and cooperative organizations.

In addition to its basic income from the public, collective-farm enterprise, every household in a collective farm has for its personal use a small plot of land attached to the dwelling and, as its personal property, a subsidiary establishment on the plot, a dwelling house, livestock, poultry and minor agricultural implements - in accordance with the the statutes of the agricultural artel.

ARTICLE 8. The land occupied by collective farms is secured to them for their use free of charge and for an unlimited time, that is, in perpetuity.

ARTICLE 131. It is the duty of every citizen of the U.S.S.R. to safeguard and strengthen public, socialist property as the sacred and inviolable foundation of the Soviet system, as the source of the wealth and might of the country, as the source of the prosperous and cultured life of all the working people.

Persons committing offences against public, socialist property are enemies of the people.

Originally Posted by bowlinggreen

I once saw a picture of Soviet peasants picking missed crops out of a very sloppily harvested field after the official collective harvesters had been through. There was a lot left lying on the ground, I mean wastage that would never be tolerated under private enterprise, and the peasants were picking up the wastage to eat themselves or trade for something else.

So that's what you get under collectivism - crop wastage because crops are harvested by people who don't give a damn, resulting in much reduced yields, which means the other collectivized people in the cities get less food, so live half starved or at least on minimum rations, and a black market in vegetables and other foodstuffs, which people have to engage in under Rougie's "fair" system in order to just get by.

Today 30% of the food in Western capitalist countries go to garbage or is not harvested.

Don't you think that under a modern form of Communism or even Capitalism, we could improve that?
Do you think that humanity is THAT stupid?

The panel of experts would find a solution to prevent such wastage.

[Estreeter]

Originally Posted by Roubignol

Let me recall you what Marx has advocated (not in order).

1) Improving human condition thanks to total human collaboration,
2) Not letting anymore the power in hands of the exploiters,
3) Distancing ourselves from any kind of form of alienation to reach as close as possible freedom.

For sure... for exploiters manipulating the weak minded, it's a program that must be fought by all means.

And let me ask you just one question,

So far out of every nation that has tried to implement his doctrine, how many have succeeded and are still thriving .......... Just a number will do, how many ??? Please answer if your willing with just a number, not a reason as to why or how each one has failed Just a number please

Originally Posted by Roubignol

In many Western countries we actually don't live under real democracy. Just ask to Deepsepia, if he would like to revoke Donald Trump?

It don't matter what deepsepia thinks only, what matter is under any countries own system how a President or PM is removed from power, Trust me, I don't like Trump much at all, that said I do think he has a few reasonable ideas but I respect an election result enough to let a Government run it's course ..... unless they become violent or abusive or totally inept where the place is on the verge of collapse or starvation.

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by Estreeter

And let me ask you just one question,

So far out of every nation that has tried to implement his doctrine, how many have succeeded and are still thriving .......... Just a number will do, how many ??? Please answer if your willing with just a number, not a reason as to why or how each one has failed Just a number please

There is a machine running at full speed (Capitalism) in a dry field (injustice, dissatisfaction). It ejects lots of little sparks (ressentment of working classes). Some of them produce small fires (social strikes, anti-capitalist revolutions, socialist parties and Communist attempts) that go out spontaneously (failed attempts). Are you sure that the field will never totally fire (Worldwide Real Communism)?

[Estreeter]

Originally Posted by Estreeter

So far out of every nation that has tried to implement his doctrine, how many have succeeded and are still thriving .......... Just a number will do, how many ??? Please answer if your willing with just a number, not a reason as to why or how each one has failed Just a number please

Originally Posted by Roubignol

There is a machine running at full speed (Capitalism) in a dry field (injustice, dissatisfaction). It ejects lots of little sparks (ressentment of working classes). Some of them produce small fires (social strikes, anti-capitalist revolutions, socialist parties and Communist attempts) that go out spontaneously (failed attempts). Are you sure that the field will never totally fire (Worldwide Real Communism)?

Your reply to my question is exactly why I think you're no different to a career politician It would have been far simpler to just provide a single number for my direct question which can only have one possible answer, a number, nothing else Instead you go on, just like a career politician would and not give a direct answer to a direct question, but just ramble on and answer my question with of all things a question On top of that I still have no answer to my simple question .... How many States have tried it and how many have succeeded and are thriving today

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by Estreeter

Your reply to my question is exactly why I think you're no different to a career politician It would have been far simpler to just provide a single number for my direct question which can only have one possible answer, a number, nothing else Instead you go on, just like a career politician would and not give a direct answer to a direct question, but just ramble on and answer my question with of all things a question On top of that I still have no answer to my simple question .... How many States have tried it and how many have succeeded and are thriving today

I answered you with special and caring attention.
Real Communism has not to be national, it has to be worldwide.

If you don't want to read theory books, don't look at me as a politician, but as a private teacher.

[Estreeter]

Originally Posted by Roubignol

I answered you with special and caring attention.

Please, just a numeral That's all I need for an answer
Collaborate with me and be truthful to yourself on something so damn simple, Comrade it's so damn simple to just type a number rather than 30 words There can only be one possible answer to my simple question

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by Estreeter

Please, just a numeral That's all I need for an answer
Collaborate with me and be truthful to yourself on something so damn simple, Comrade it's so damn simple to just type a number rather than 30 words There can only be one possible answer to my simple question

I can't give you any numeral.
Don't you understand that your question has no real answer?
Communism is everywhere in the world, hidden under several aspects.

It's not because Russia failed to reach REAL Communism that it's not the goal of Putin to reach it under a different way.

I'm not able to tell you if China, Laos, Vietnam, North Korea and Cuba don't try to find strategic solutions to reach REAL communism.

IMO Chinese Party has a strategy. It's to destroy Western Capitalism in using its own tools. Only a unique Party can use a strategy like that.
Western Capitalist (left, center and right) democracies don't get any strategies. They only manage their societies to satisfy private interests of few people.

But that's my opinion, maybe I'm wrong.

[Estreeter]

Originally Posted by Roubignol

I can't give you any numeral.
Don't you understand that your question has no real answer?
Communism is everywhere in the world, hidden under several aspects.

It's not because Russia failed to reach REAL Communism that it's not the goal of Putin to reach it under a different way.

I'm not able to tell you if China, Laos, Vietnam, North Korea and Cuba don't try to find strategic solutions to reach REAL communism.

IMO Chinese Party has a strategy. It's to destroy Western Capitalism in using its own tools. Only a unique Party can use a strategy like that.
Western Capitalist (left, center and right) democracies don't get any strategies. They only manage their societies to satisfy private interests of few people.

But that's my opinion, maybe I'm wrong.

What you will never understand, repeat never ever understand in that those who read Marx, implemented his idiotic thoughts in reaching Real Communism, always fucked it up For the life of me I cannot understand where your thought process lies in not seeing that plain and simple fact, Real Communism cannot and will not ever be reached. Every time it's been tried and probably with, God forgive me for saying this but good intentions, it fails dismally ...... what part of that failing won't you accept So, the simple answer is a number, in implementing Marxism to any society results in failure and that failure rate has a 100% figure of failing badly. Please, do us all a favour of the monotonous answer of "Real Communism" wasn't reached as it won't ever.

Try a new argument, that one has worn so thin it's laughable and pathetic.
In fact a page or 2 back I even brought up a point that having to work possibly against ones will on a collective farm is in itself exploitation ..... you even managed to not answer that one as it will once again expose hypocrisy.

If I was a very well built and string male and was made to work on a farm but wanted to be a seamstress but wasn't allowed because of my physical strength I'd damn well feel exploited Answer that one

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by Roubignol

It's not because Russia failed to reach REAL Communism that it's not the goal of Putin to reach it under a different way.

Putin has no interest at all in Communism. He styles himself as a modern Peter the Great, not a modern Stalin. Note that the name of the country is now "Russia", and their symbol is the double headed eagle of the Romanovs.

Short of getting Putin here to explain it to you himself, I'm not sure how much more obvious it can be.

Originally Posted by Roubignol

IMO Chinese Party has a strategy. It's to destroy Western Capitalism in using its own tools.

Well that would be news to the Chinese Communist Party. They've no interest at all in Mao or communism. Their model is authoritarian states with market economies -- Singapore was an example.

Remember, unlike you, the leaders of China lived with "real Communism" -- and suffered hugely for it.

If you're a Chinese "communist"-- everything good in your life starts with the death of Mao, the fall of the Gang of Four, and abandoning communism. It may not be clear to you, but it sure is clear to them; in one generation they've gone from starving to being rich, and Marxism played no role in that.

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

and Marxism played no role in that.

I must admit that I don't know Chinese and Russian languages. So my notions about what are the politics of these countries are related from arguments made by European journalists or translations.

What I understood from what French and German journalists showed in a recent documentary about Xi JinPing was that the actual Chinese "Communist" Party still get the control and have changed the strategy since Deng Xiaoping.

Xi Jinping recently said in front of the Party: "China will take a central position in the world and make a greater contribution to humanity."

In that documentary, LIU Mingfu, Retired colonel of the People's Liberation Army said (translation from Chinese to French to English: "The great unity of the world means that all the peoples of the world live in a great family and share the same happiness, the same security and the same joy. Unlike the world today where the US is the only country to reign supreme over others, like a tiger who is about to devour sheep."


In the same documentary a retired USA ambassador "Marc Baucus" said: "Chinese Party has a strategy, Western democracies don't".

That's normal.
The market you like so much only defend personal interests and not the interests of the community. Wake up Deep. You adore a brothel that destroys bodies and souls, that destroys environmental resources.

True Communism is far more peaceful, but sadly has to defend itself from vicious greedy people.

Even as atheist, I think that all the people who believe in a caring God would have to pray that God must destroy the market and save REAL Communism.


In an interview given to RT Russia, Putin said between American and Russian culture:

"... we do have fundamental "culture-logical" differences. The foundation of American consciousness is the idea of the "individual". The foundation of the Russian consciousness is the idea of the "collective". There is one Pushkin scholar, who noted this concept well; in "Gone with the Wind", the main heroine, she says "I'll never be hungry again". For her, this is of outmost importance. But in our understanding - as a Russian person, we have a different mission, it is something that "stretches beyond the horizon" [deeper]. It is something spiritual, it is something to do with the Maker. These are two different philosophies of life.
[...]
.... Colonisation of the American continent began with large scale ethnic cleansing... Its scale had no precedent in the history of mankind. When Europeans first arrived, this is what they did, and it must be said bluntly. [...]
In the colonisation of America by Europeans, [...] they exterminated the native population. Aside from that, American history knows slavery... And it is so deeply seated [in their consciousness]
[...] I really doubt that Stalin, in the Spring of 1945, if he had a nuclear bomb, I doubt that he would have dropped it on Germany. In 1941, or 1942, when it was a question of life or destruction of the Soviet state, maybe he would have, if he had it. But in 1945, when it was clear that the enemy was in capitulation, essentially, when it was clear that the enemy was in capitulation, essentially, when the enemy had no chance of winning - I really doubt he would have. Just my personal view.
But the Americans did this - against a defeated Japan, a non-nuclear country at that. [...]

You see, Putin described history like a Marxist.

Originally Posted by Estreeter

... Real Communism cannot and will not ever be reached. Every time it's been tried and probably with, God forgive me for saying this but good intentions, it fails dismally ...

Are you paid to moderate this forum?
If not... you already are a little bit on the way to reach REAL Communism.