The First World War

[palo5]

Originally Posted by haroldeye

...
The retreat to Dunkirk was not caused by being beaten in the field but by the constant danger of being outflanked...

That is being beaten in the field. If you let yourself be encircled, you are doing everything wrong

[knobby109]

Originally Posted by palo5

That is being beaten in the field. If you let yourself be encircled, you are doing everything wrong

Not really. When the allies on your flank are retreating you have to move with them or risk being encircled , if they collapse altogether you will be encircled because where there once were allies there are now enemy forces.

[haroldeye]

Palo - They were capable of learning and they devised the tactics that eventually brought them victory.

That is being beaten in the field. If you let yourself be encircled, you are doing everything wrong

But they withdrew in order not to become encircled as the French army collapsed. Likewise in the retreat from Mons the BEF withdrew in good order as the French did on their flank and then turned and gave the Germans several bloody noses.

In 1918 the Kaiserschlact pushed the British and French back many miles but they held, halted the advance and then forced the Germans back. Was that a defeat or a victory?

Palo on this one you are watching with 20/20 hindsight. The WW1 generals had to cope with taking an army of 300,000 configured for Imperial policing and building it into a force of some 4.5million men. They had to learn to understand the effects and implications of modern artillery systems, massed machine guns, air, chemical and eventually armour in relation to massive defence works. The one technical advance they didn't have was reliable portable communication systems. They were fighting a modern war with comms' no better than those Napolean used.

They built that army and dealt head on with all the problems. They held things together and eventually beat the German Army in the field and into surrender.

Don't judge them by a theatre workshop production or a book written by a louche aristo who never had more than one thought above his waist band.

[Ennath]

January 28, 1915
Eastern Front The Russians are driven back near Beskid Pass.
British Planning Having totally changed his mind, Fisher has sent Churchill a message opposing the Dardanelles operation and submitting his resignation. Fearful that he cannot succeed without Fisher’s support, Churchill persuades the admiral to consult with the Prime Minister before a War Council meeting. Asquith sides with Churchill. Still vehemently opposing the Dardanelles venture, Fisher abruptly leaves the conference table during the meeting. Kitchener follows him and persuades Sir John to rejoin the discussion. Churchill finally wins over the admiral, who now becomes a devout convert.

January 28, 1916
Western Front The Germans take some trenches at Givenchy and Frise; they are repulsed at Carnoy.
Albania The Austrians force pro-Allied irregulars south.
Macedonia The Allies occupy Kara Burun over Greek protests.

January 28, 1918
War in the Air A German raid on London kills 67.
Western Front The Germans raid between Lens and Arras.
Russia Soviet and Ukrainian forces battle at Lutsk. The Soviets are repulsed. The Russian Orthodox Church is formally disestablished.
Finland Red Guard and Russian troops capture Helsinki (Helsingfors).
Estonia The new state calls for German aid in repulsing the Soviet attack.
Diplomatic Relations The Soviet government breaks relations with Rumania.
Italian Front Italian troops take Col del Rosso, between Asiago and the Brenta, with 500 prisoners.
Germany Stimulated by the slowness of the Russian peace process, food shortages and rationing, and strike calls by the Independent Social Democratic Party (which broke away from the mainstream Social Democrats in April 1917), joined by the Spartakists (formed by Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht in January 1916), the Berlin Union of Metalworkers launches a strike; other unions quickly join in. 500,000 workers in the capital and about a million nationwide are involved. The strikers’ slogans call for peace without claims to territory and for democracy in Germany.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by haroldeye

They were capable of learning and they devised the tactics that eventually brought them victory...

Well, they were talking about evacuation in May 1918, so obviously it's more complicated than that. There were many factors involved, so it seems unlikely that British Generals or tactics made the big difference. But the British blockade did, and if you mentioned the presence of almost 2.000.000 American troops that Germany couldn't match, you'd have a truly convincing argument

Originally Posted by knobby109

Not really. When the allies on your flank are retreating you have to move with them or risk being encircled , if they collapse altogether you will be encircled because where there once were allies there are now enemy forces.

It doesn't matter how it happens. I know the point you want to make, but if you are forced off the continent and must abandon your equipment, including all your tanks, vehicles, artillery and stores etc so that you have nothing to fight with even if you wanted to, you have most definitely been beaten. The only question in my mind is why didn't Hitler destroy the rest when they were defenseless?

[Ennath]

January 29, 1915
Western Front The British repulse a German attack southwest of La Bassee. The Germans fail to cross the Aisne near Soissons.
Eastern Front There is heavy fighting between Dukla and Wyszkov Passes; the Russians lose ground. Russian troops advance toward Tilsit.
War at Sea A German torpedo boat is torpedoed by a Russian submarine off Cape Moen, Denmark.
Cameroon French troops take Bertua

January 29, 1916
Western Front The Germans attack at Dompierre in the Somme sector. There is a Zeppelin raid on Paris.
Eastern Front There is renewed fighting in Bukovina.
Caucasus The Russians bombard the ridges outside Erzurum.
Britain There is a protest against the closing of London museums. The Labor Conference votes to allow its members to remain in the cabinet.
Mesopotamia After several days at the front, General Lake is less sanguine about the prospects for relieving Kut. He has 14,000 troops and 46 guns at hand with another 11,000 troops ad 28 guns in reserve. The Turks have 10,000 men on the right bank of the Tigris and reserves at Shumran and elsewhere. They are well entrenched and word has come from Constantinople that 36,000 troops have left Gallipoli bound for Mesopotamia. Lake decides to pursue the campaign, bolstering Aylmer by appointing the able Sir George Gorringe as his chief of staff.

January 29, 1917
North Sea The British announce the laying of a mine barrage from Yorkshire to Jutland.

January 29, 1918
Western Front There are several British raids in the Cambrai sector.
Italian Front The Italians take Monte di Val Bella.

January 29, 1919
Ireland The Irish War of Independence begins with an attack on members of the RIC at Soloheadbeg. The Royal Irish Constabulary and auxiliary “Black & Tans” are joined in 1920 by British regulars. There are atrocities on both sides.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by palo5

It doesn't matter how it happens. I know the point you want to make, but if you are forced off the continent and must abandon your equipment, including all your tanks, vehicles, artillery and stores etc so that you have nothing to fight with even if you wanted to, you have most definitely been beaten. The only question in my mind is why didn't Hitler destroy the rest when they were defenseless?

This is a point for the WW2 thread. The Halt Befehl has been discussed there.

The problem of fighting alongside allies is one which has always affected the British Army. As you youself have pointed out in the past, it is too small to be capable of victory against the army of a great European power on its own. If you want an answer to your question, best to post it on the WW2 thread.

[Ennath]

January 30, 1902
Diplomatic Relations Britain and Japan sign a defensive alliance to be activated if either is at war with two or more nations. It is intended to curb Russian ambitions in Asia, which concern both parties to the treaty. It marks the end of Britain’s diplomatic isolation. This encourages those in France who see Britain as a possible counterweight to Germany.

January 30, 1915
Western Front The French lose ground and 700 prisoners in the western Argonne.
Eastern Front A German attack near Lipno, in northwest Poland, is repulsed.
Persia The Russians defeat Turkish troops near Sufian and drive them from Tabriz.
War at Sea A U-Boat sinks four merchant ships off the Lancashire coast.
Diplomatic Relations President Wilson’s closest advisor, Colonel Edward House, who has been talking with the British and German ambassadors, sails for Europe as Wilson’s special envoy to pursue the peaceful settlement of the war.

January 30, 1916
Western Front French troops repulse the Germans at Dompierre.

January 30, 1917
Western Front The French make some successful attacks near Leintrey, Lorraine.
Eastern Front The Germans gain between Tirul Swamp and the Aa, taking 900 prisoners. In Bukovina, the Russians capture some hill positions near Jacobeni, with 1000 prisoners.

January 30, 1918
War in the Air A bomber raid on Paris kills 49.
Italian Front The Asiago-Brenta fighting dies down; the Italians extend their holdings.
Palestine The British extend their holdings north of Jerusalem.
Brazil It is decided to send a naval squadron to Europe.
Aegean The British submarine E-14 is lost off Kum Kale attempting to sink the Goeben.
Germany The strikes spread to Munich, Kiel, and Hamburg.

January 30, 1920
Russia Japanese troops defeat a Communist rising in Vladivostok.

[Ennath]

January 31, 1912
Britain It’s a Long Way to Tipperary, perhaps the most famous song of the war, debuts at a London music hall.

January 31, 1915
Eastern Front The Germans debut poison gas. At Bolimov, Poland, they fire some18,000 gas-filled shells at Russian positions. However, in the freezing temperatures, the gas fails to volatize and the Russians never even realize that they are under gas attack. German attacks make minor gains.
Arabia The Idrisi Emir of Asir seizes Farasan Island from the Turks, then turns it over to the British, establishing an alliance. The British are opposed to any supply to Asir by anyone but themselves, so the revolt here never gathers any momentum. The Emirate is conquered by the Saudis by 1923.

January 31, 1916
War in the Air Nine Zeppelins raid East Anglia and the Midlands. 70 people are killed, but only minor destruction is caused as mists and fogs obscure industrial targets, including Liverpool.

January 31, 1917
Western Front The Germans are repulsed near Beaucourt.
Eastern Front Austrian counterattacks at Jacobeni fail.
War at Sea Germany announces unrestricted submarine warfare. Germany also announces that the passage of hospital ships to and from Belgium will no longer be permitted, claiming misuse of the Red Cross.
Diplomatic Relations Shortly after 4:00 PM, Count Bernstorff delivers to Secretary of State Lansing a note informing him that Germany will resume unrestricted submarine warfare on the following day. The note justifies this move on the grounds that the Allies “desire to fight to the bitter end” and are determined to carve up thir enemies’ territories – thus Germany is forced to continue fighting, and with any weapon available. The count expresses deep regret and tears well in his eyes as he says goodbye to Lansing. Two memorials accompanying the note state that German U-Boats will sink without warning all ships in waters around Great Britain, France, and Italy and in the eastern Mediterranean, that there will be a certain grace period for merchantmen and passenger liners, and that the United States will be allowed to send one ship per week out of Falmouth, England, if it is guaranteed not to contain contraband and it is marked with red and white stripes. On this same afternoon, in response to Wilson’s speech of the 22nd, an aide to Bernstorff travels to New York to provide Colonel House, Wilson’s emissary, with the terms Germany desires for peace. The terms include restitution of that part of Alsace the French occupy, provision of a frontier to protect Poland and Germany from Russia, restitution of those parts of France occupied by Germany, with financial compensation, but also with frontier adjustments; restoration of Belgium with guarantees for German security; restoration of German colonies; “freedom of the seas”, and an end to restrictive commercial treaties. But of course the resumption of unrestricted submarine warfare ends any hope of continuing the effort of a peace process. When Wilson learns of Bernstorff’s note, he says “The break that we have tried so hard to prevent now seems inevitable.” The president is ready to sever relations, but not to go to war.

January 31, 1918
Italian Front An Austrian counterattack at Monte di Val Bella is repulsed.
Germany The Trade Unions refuse strike pay. Martial law is proclaimed in several cities; the police close down labor newspapers, break up meetings and arrest strike leaders to be tried by military courts. Reports indicate 50,000 strikers are drafted into the army.

January 31, 1919
Britain Battle of George Street. Police battle rioting strikers in Glasgow. Troops are finally sent to restore order.

January 31, 1926
Italy Mussolini gives himself the right to rule by decree.
Germany British and Belgian troops evacuate Cologne.

January 31, 1927
Diplomatic Relations The Allied Military Control Commission is withdrawn from Germany and supervision of the Versailles armaments limitations is entrusted to the League Council. None of the Commission’s members has been willing to use troops to enforce Versailles, despite Germany’s frequent flouting of its clauses.

January 31, 1929
Russia Trotsky is expelled from the USSR.

[squigg58]

Originally Posted by Ennath

January 31, 1916
War in the Air Nine Zeppelins raid East Anglia and the Midlands. 70 people are killed, but only minor destruction is caused as mists and fogs obscure industrial targets, including Liverpool.

Most of the destruction was in the Midlands, with Burton, Tipton, Wednesbury and Walsall (amongst others ) being hit. The Zeppelin Commanders actually believed they were over Liverpool at the time, having mistaken Derby for Manchester due to the poor visibility.

An interesting postscript to the raid concerns L.19 which suffered multiple engine failure on the return flight, and came down in the North Sea. A British trawler, the King Stephen, eventually discovered the crashed L.19 with the sixteen crew members clinging to the the wreckage. However, the skipper of the King Stephen refused to rescue the crew, fearing they would take control of the trawler and steam to Germany. Returning to Britain, the trawler skipper deliberately gave a false location for the wreck as he'd been fishing in a forbidden area, so subsequent searches were in vain.

The entire crew of L.19 drowned, with the event dividing public opinion in Britain. It's safe to say that opinion in Germany was not divided!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeppelin_L.19_%28LZ_54%29