The First World War

[rustler]

Originally Posted by squigg58

It does strike me as slightly odd that a VC would be awarded to the US Unknown Soldier, but not to any others, especially if the Croix de Guerre was awarded to the British Unknown Soldier by France.

I wondered if it had something to do with putting emotion to one side and following strict protocol. However, that would only be valid if what is now the United States was considered to have once been a part of the British Empire.

Or maybe someone was put out that France saw fit only to award the Croix de Guerre, not the Legion d'Honneur, which is I believe their highest award, (militaire 1st class)?

As regards its award to the Unknown Soldier in Canada, personally, I would see it as a visible sign that those who laid down their lives for their country, were all equally regards as heroes, known or not. The British Unknown Soldier never received the Victoria Cross either!

[Historian]

Originally Posted by rupertramjet

A lot of commonwealth veterans groups, and their senior serving military officers are also oppossd to these medals. But I think in the case of these three particular awards, the veterans groups felt that the highest award they could win was the original Victoria Cross, and if any was awarded it should only be that.

A lot of them couldnt see the point, and a huge ammount of them felt that it was devaluing the award. Having seen the citations for the three Australian awards in Afghanistan, I am on the fence, at least one of these awards would have been a Conspicuous Gallantry Cross, anyway I should not demean these brave men. I would point out however that the last Australian to win the VC for Australia Corporal Ben Roberts-Smith SAS, was received by both The Queen and the Prime Minister when he made an official visit to Great Britain.

I'm very wary of posting this, because I would certainly never wish to demean any of these brave men either, and I wish I could remember exactly where I read it, but I have seen the theory put forward in one of many books and articles written about the VC, that over the years there has been some change in the perception of what actions might warrant the award of the VC over another decoration.

The author made the suggestion that on occasion, they were awarded for deeds that in other times may have been regarded as warranting a 'lesser' decoration- IIRC, this discussion implied that a small minority of WW1 VCs in particular fell into this category, although, unsurprisingly, I don't think I recall it referring to specific individuals.

From memory, he quoted the anonymous example of a WW1 commanding officer who claimed in his journal that he had recommended a man under his command for the award of the Military Medal or similar, only for the recommendation to be turned down. Disappointed but determined that the soldier's actions needed to be recognised, supposedly, the CO resubmitted the recommendation, after gingering up the language of his report considerably- and was surprised to get a reply advising that the soldier was now to be awarded the VC!

How true this may be I don't know, but there certainly have been circumstances in which politics of various kinds may have intervened- going off-topic a little into the 19th century, the award of one of the most famous groups of VCs, those for the defenders of Rorkes Drift in 1879, were subject to a considerable amount of politicking, lobbying and controversy at the time, which has been interpreted by some historians as partly an attempt to distract from the catastrophic defeat at Ishandhlwana the previous day.
Lt-Gen Sir Garnet Wolseley, who had replaced Lord Chelmsford as Commander-in-Chief South Africa later that year commented that 'it is monstrous making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting, or those who, shut up in buildings at Rorke’s Drift, could not bolt, and fought like rats for their lives which they could not otherwise save'

As I said, I have absolutely no wish at all to demean or detract from the courage of any of these brave men, but it's an interesting thought in the light of your comments

[rupertramjet]

As regards its award to the Unknown Soldier in Canada, personally, I would see it as a visible sign that those who laid down their lives for their country, were all equally regards as heroes, known or not. The British Unknown Soldier never received the Victoria Cross either!

The British unknown soldier DID receive the VC, on behalf of all the fallen, the Medal however is not gazetted in the normal way.it is an interesting point about protocol. their are Victoria Crosses awarded to soldiers of other nations, especially during the Second World War, for example the only SAS VC to date, was won bt a Dane, OK serving under the British Flg, but surely the French serving as close allies and often flanking British Units in Battle would qaulify for that, interesting though!

Historian raises a point often discussed in other places and with no difinative answer. I talk about the three recomendations for the Victoria Cross in the Falklands War, the original documents are interesting, in that the medal being down graded to a DCM, is written in pencil in the margin, their are sections of the original document mising, and many people feel that it was not awarded because The Parachute Regiment already had two, and to give another, would devalue the award and also show bias towards The Regiment. I am sure that their have been cases of the award having been granted or denied for similar reasons.

The system which is used, recomendation from senior officer, sent to Theatre Commander, then forwarded to the joints awards commitee, and in the case of The George and Victoria Cross their own high ranking committee, and finally The Queen, should prevent the deserving not getting it, and the ones with any forms of question getting downgraded, should prevent this. I know that the ones that have been awarded in the past few years are both richly deserved.

[palo5]

I've read that award of medals is not always so straightforward. For example, it can be political to raise morale and for PR. Or it can be "top-down", for example, when an officer is told "Your crew can have 10 Iron Crosses (or whatever) - pick 10 brave men and write citations"

Officers can also be told not to recommend anyone for medals, even when they may be deserved. For example, in the case of huge-scale disaster. I have read this was the case with the destruction of 'Force Z', although there must have been many heroes there

[rustler]

Quote:
Originally Posted by rupertramjet
The British unknown soldier DID receive the VC, on behalf of all the fallen, the Medal however is not gazetted in the normal way.it is an interesting point about protocol. their are Victoria Crosses awarded to soldiers of other nations, especially during the Second World War, for example the only SAS VC to date, was won bt a Dane, OK serving under the British Flg, but surely the French serving as close allies and often flanking British Units in Battle would qaulify for that, interesting though!


Where have you heard that please, I have read a lot about the medal over the years, but have never heard of this award. The award to the American Unknown Soldier was not gazetted either, but we have heard of it. I have seen the Medal of Honor hanging in its glass case to the side of the grave of the Unknown Warrior, but there is no Victoria Cross on show there.

Maj. Anders Lassen was the Dane that you mention, who won his VC. in Italy IIRC. in April 1945. It was a posthumous award. At the time, again IIRC, he was a Dane serving with the British SAS, but attached to the 'sacred' Greek Squadron.

He is actually one of two Danes who have won the coveted award. At least one Swiss soldier ( Schiess at Rorkes Drift in 1879 ), and at least one Fijian has won it, and I believe that a German has won it also, though I will have to look that one up, but possibly Boer War?

[rupertramjet]

There are actually an astonishing array of overseas recipients of the Victoria Cross. they as you so rightly say, include Swiss, German, and two Danes, but all of these have been serving under British Command. Fijians are part of the Commonwealth and all Commonwealth Service Personnel are entitled, for example an Australian won the VC in Vietnam, despite Britain not being involved, this has changed only because of the decision to award National VCs by the three countries.

On the subject of the Unkown Warrior, as in the case of the French Tomb, I too can not find the document from which I got it, so will withdraw that for the time being. But as an aside the Guard of Honour at the funeral, was made up of 100 Holders of the Victoria Cross:

On the morning of 11 November the coffin was placed on a gun carriage drawn by six black horses and began its journey through the crowd-lined streets, making its first stop in Whitehall where the Cenotaph was unveiled by King George V. The King placed his wreath of red roses and bay leaves on the coffin. Then the carriage, with pall bearers (Admirals) Lord Beatty, Sir Hedworth Meux, Sir Henry Jackson, Sir C.E.Madden, (Field Marshals) Lord French, Lord Haig, Lord Methuen, Sir Henry Wilson, (Generals) Lord Horne, Lord Byng, Albert Farrar-Gatliff and Air Chief Marshal Sir Hugh Trenchard, followed by the King, members of the Royal Family and ministers of State, made its way to the north door of Westminster Abbey. The coffin was borne to the west end of the Nave through a guard of honour of 100 holders of the Victoria Cross, under the command of Colonel Freyburg VC. During the shortened form of the Burial Service, after the hymn "Lead kindly light", the King stepped forward and dropped a handful of French earth onto the coffin as it was lowered into the grave. At the close of the service, after the hymn "Abide with me" and prayers, the congregation sang Rudyard Kipling's solemn Recessional "God of our fathers" after which the Reveille was sounded by trumpeters. Other eminent members of the congregation were Queen Alexandra, the queens of Spain and Norway, the Duke of Connaught, politicians Lloyd George and Asquith, and Sir Douglas Dawson.
The grave was then covered by a silk funeral pall, which had been presented to the Abbey by the Actors' Church Union, with the Padre's flag lying over this. Servicemen kept watch while thousands of mourners filed past. Special permission had been given to make a recording of the service but only the two hymns were of good enough quality to be included on the record, the first electrical recording ever to be sold to the public.
The grave was filled in, using 100 sandbags of French earth, on 18 November and then covered by a temporary stone with a gilded inscription on it:
"A BRITISH WARRIOR WHO FELL IN THE GREAT WAR 1914-1918 FOR KING AND COUNTRY. GREATER LOVE HATH NO MAN THAN THIS." from Westminster Abbet official record

[rustler]

Originally Posted by rupertramjet

There are actually an astonishing array of overseas recipients of the Victoria Cross. they as you so rightly say, include Swiss, German, and two Danes, but all of these have been serving under British Command. Fijians are part of the Commonwealth and all Commonwealth Service Personnel are entitled, for example an Australian won the VC in Vietnam, despite Britain not being involved, this has changed only because of the decision to award National VCs by the three countries.

If memory serves correctly, there were in fact four Australians who were awarded The Victoria Cross for actions in Vietnam. WO.II. Keith Payne was the last, and therefore probably the most famous of the recipients. He won his in May 1969.

[squigg58]

Some relevant lists ... although as it's Wiki, I'm not sure how complete or accurate they are!

First World War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...oss_recipients

By Nationality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...by_nationality

By campaign
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ts_by_campaign

[rupertramjet]

You are correct I was using this to illustrate. The four Australian Vietnm VCs were as follows:
Kevin Wheatley 1965 Tra Bong
Peter Badcoe 1967 Huong Tra
Ray Simpson 1969 Kon Tum
Keith Payne 1969 Ben Het

all members of the Australian Army Training Team

[knobby109]

Looking through the list of VCs and I came across the name of Martin Dunbar-Nasmith.
He was a submarine commander.We hear plenty about the German U boats but little about the Royal Navy's submarine successes and Nasmith is well worth a Google search.