Putin/Ukraine/and other actions

[TheBare]

Originally Posted by Norbert84

Very interesting: http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articl...he-wests-fault

Strange ... I get white page even with search. Browser issue?? offline ?? blocked??

[Brecht]

Originally Posted by TheBare

Strange ... I get white page even with search. Browser issue?? offline ?? blocked??

I don't know what seems to be the problem because the page opens for me when I click on the link. Try this in Google: John J. Mearsheimer Ukraine foreign affairs.

[TheBare]

That is sooooooooo weird. Anything that is related to
foreignaffairs.com leads me to white page. Never had that issue b4.
I did find it through startpage search HERE though.
Thanks I'll read it.

[Almero]

Originally Posted by SanteeFats

I guess Russia is blameless in all this? To use an old American playground taunt "they started it" with the invasion of Crimea and escalated the entire thing by arming and supporting the pro-Russian separatists. If the MH17 was a staged event by the West why hasn't Russia produced any evidence to the contrary? Is it possible that while the US military may have had a sat over head (I believe they more than likely did) that there is other sensitive info that they don't want shown? Remember that the international investigators were kept out of the wreckage area for two days while separatists cleaned the site, recovered and took the black boxes, and very disrespectfully gathered up bodies. Or is that all Western propaganda? The press here has more to cover with Hamas blindly attacking Israel even during cease fires, ISIS slaughtering the Yazidis and all others who don't meet their strict standards.
I guess you think all the press from Russia is not self serving propaganda but totally true?
Concerning Washington's wanting to escalate things have you followed Obama's lack of international resolve and wishy washy policies?
So Putin, the ex (?) KGB colonel is all peace and daisy's wanting nothing but harmony in the world?
So when attacked by terrorists I guess America, the EU, Israel, etc. should just say sorry and not respond?

Invasion is when US shelled Yugoslavia, Iraq and there was held a referendum in Crimea. Supreme Council of Crimea considered the ousting of Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych in the 2014 Ukrainian revolution as a coup and the new interim government in Kiev as illegitimate and stated that the referendum is a response to these developments. The official result from the Autonomous Republic of Crimea was a 96.77 percent vote for integration of the region into the Russian Federation with an 83.1 percent voter turnout.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean...ferendum,_2014)

Arming and supporting the pro-Russian separatists?
Do you have any evidence of arming separatists, any russian weapon (not USSR arms сaptured from the Ukrainian Army) or do you say it because BBC and CNN said this? If CNN tells you to jump off a skyscraper will you trust them!? So why do you belive in everything that they say!? What exactly type of russian arms were found and where are those separatists who possessed this russian weapon? 5 snaps released by NATO were bullshit(there were self-propelled artillery units and 2 inscriptions on the map - Ukraine, Russia)
So there is no evidence but only waffling and whacker.

I've already written about staged event: SBU [Ukrainian Security Service] uploaded video offered as proof of the involvement of Militia, the creation date of the video was 2014-07-16 19:10:24 (the day before the plain was shot down)
The creation date cannot be changed in any manner, other than by re-creating and re-uploading the video at a future date.
If this is not proof, then I have no idea what would count as proof.

Separatists very disrespectfully gathered up bodies? What exactly do you mean? Any video proof or anything? Or should we take CNN word for it?

I don't think all the press from Russia is not self serving propaganda but totally true. I think everybody should trust facts not words

Putin minds his own business he doesn't shell others countries at least.

America is gonna destroy the terrorists which it had created.

[SanteeFats]

Originally Posted by Almero

Arming and supporting the pro-Russian separatists?
Do you have any evidence of arming separatists, any russian weapon (not USSR arms сaptured from the Ukrainian Army) or do you say it because BBC and CNN said this? If CNN tells you to jump off a skyscraper will you trust them!? So why do you belive in everything that they say!? What exactly type of russian arms were found and where are those separatists who possessed this russian weapon? 5 snaps released by NATO were bullshit(there were self-propelled artillery units and 2 inscriptions on the map - Ukraine, Russia)
So there is no evidence but only waffling and whacker.

I've already written about staged event: SBU [Ukrainian Security Service] uploaded video offered as proof of the involvement of Militia, the creation date of the video was 2014-07-16 19:10:24 (the day before the plain was shot down)
The creation date cannot be changed in any manner, other than by re-creating and re-uploading the video at a future date.
If this is not proof, then I have no idea what would count as proof.

Separatists very disrespectfully gathered up bodies? What exactly do you mean? Any video proof or anything? Or should we take CNN word for it?
I don't think all the press from Russia is not self serving propaganda but totally true. I think everybody should trust facts not words
Putin minds his own business he doesn't shell others countries at least.

Almero First I have no idea where you got the CNN garbage. I would like to point out that I do not fully trust Any media!!! I watch very little US news shows and not CNN for sure. It seems you do trust every thing from Russian sources. Russia always tells the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?? As you said above bullshit. Aren't facts discribed by words or pictures/video?

Arming any group is very easy now days, if some country won't do it the black market will. So if Russia didn't do it where do the rebels get their money to buy arms? Since one side says Russia is arming the rebels and the other side says no, it is up individuals to decide for themselves. As it appears you have for Russia and I for the West.

Here is a link to a video, believe it or not, probably not since it isn't from Russia: http://www.westernjournalism.com/ukr...h-flight-mh17/
another:http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/...disrespectful-
As for Putin you have your opinion and I have mine. TTFN

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by Almero

Putin minds his own business he doesn't shell others countries at least.

America is gonna destroy the terrorists which it had created.

Chechnya? Georgia? Ukraine? Mr Putin is everyone's dream next door neighbour.

[blazes]

< Mr Putin brings on exactly the opposite of his goals. Every sane neighbour of Russia not willing to be assimilated in 'Nova Russia' will want to join the EU and/or Nato asap

[SanteeFats]

I see that the only country to criticize the Dutch led investigation into MH17 is Russia. Why doesn't that surprise me?? Interesting,IMO, that the investigators just state that it was brought down by high speed projectiles from the ground but do not say anything about which side may have done it. To me this means they are doing a creditable job and not just trying to blame one side or the other.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by SanteeFats

I see that the only country to criticize the Dutch led investigation into MH17 is Russia. Why doesn't that surprise me?? Interesting,IMO, that the investigators just state that it was brought down by high speed projectiles from the ground but do not say anything about which side may have done it. To me this means they are doing a creditable job and not just trying to blame one side or the other.

This rather takes us back to where we began in July, when the question seemed to simply be "Who fired that missile(s)". One remembers how the Separatists announced gloatingly on social media that they had shot down another Ukrainian transport plane, only to pull the announcement quickly when the loss of Flight MH17 was being publicised. The next thing will be that it woz ver Ukrainians wot dun it, it woz a falssse flag conspiracy wonnit, guvner...

Russia is still in the same bind she was in when it happened. Either she did it herself, which I find hard to believe, or she supplied the kit to a bunch of ignorant cowboys whom she is trying to use against the Ukrainian government and people. and these stupid oafs did it. I would be extremely surprised if there was any intent; its far more likely that this was a terrible accident of war in which no one meant any harm to come to innocent and neutral civilians. If the people who fired this missile had admitted to their error straight away, the debate would have quickly moved on to address compensation for the families of the victims, and the contributory negligence of the Ukrainians in routing the flight and other like it over a war zone, and of the airlines (Virgin and Lufthansa among others) who made a habit of flying this route when the risk is now all too clear. Indeed, lawsuits against the Ukrainian government and against Malaysian Airlines have already been filed; but the Russian government will no doubt flatly deny any role in this grim story at all, when the circumstances all point at them as the star of the show.

Russia would do well to bite this bullet and face up to the question of responsibility and compensation; even if she only supplied the missiles and the actual firing of them was down to the Separatists, Russia is still responsible for this. But on the form so far, Mr Putin and his supporters will blame Ukraine, America, Britain, the EU and Cock Robin.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

Russia would do well to bite this bullet and face up to the question of responsibility and compensation; even if she only supplied the missiles and the actual firing of them was down to the Separatists, Russia is still responsible for this....

That's not a good argument. Russia is responsible for what it does, not for what others do

There are people who'd like to sue the Colt weapons company for the evil things done with their firearms, and sometimes you can sympathize. But legally they have no guilt, and it's the same with Russia here

If Russia destroyed the plane, then you can blame it