Favourite Western's

[euler]

Originally Posted by ljt0303

Mine personally would have to be Wyatt Earp, I thought Kevin Costner gave a great performance in that film.

I honestly felt that "Tombstone" was better than "Wyatt Earp". I thought that Val Kilmer's take on Doc Holliday was amazing. I must admit that I still prefer the original "Gunfight at the O.K. Corall".

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by euler

I honestly felt that "Tombstone" was better than "Wyatt Earp". I thought that Val Kilmer's take on Doc Holliday was amazing. I must admit that I still prefer the original "Gunfight at the O.K. Corall".

The gunfight at the OK Corral has been portrayed in a number of westerns. It has a lot of symbolic value as a flashpoint confrontation between opposed factions and cultures. Gunfight at the OK Corral (1957) was indeed a good film, with enjoyable performances by Kirk Douglas and Burt Lancaster. If you look at the cast list, it's almost a who's who of present and future stars. There was another rather interesting film called Hour of the Gun with Jason Robards as Holliday which was thoughtful as well as action packed and had intriguing comments to make on the ultimate futility of mere revenge.

My favourite OK Corral film is still My Darling Clementine (1946), a great John Ford western which I have already posted here. In My Darling Clementine there's nothing futile or wrong about standing up for law and order. The gunfight symbolises a crucial cultural shift, where the frontier values of dog-eat-dog lawlessness are faced down by the Earps and the bourgouise God-fearing, honest and hard-working American Dream can begin to take root with the evil Clantons safely asleep at Boot Hill. This is part of what is conveyed in the farewell scene between Henry Fonda's Wyatt Earp and Cathy Downs' Clementine Carter, when she "casually" mentions that there is now to be a new school (made possible because Wyatt has made Tombstone safe) and she is to be the schoolteacher: subtext: Wyatt, if you want me, here's where I am. It's elegantly poised, open-ended and full of future hope, a perfect ending for a movie.

[sh987]

My favourite western would be Once Upon a Time in the West. Great characters, locations, shots, beautiful woman, even Fonda playing against type. Had it all.

If there's a western I hated most, it would Dances With Wolves. It's a racist film in a genre that has a long and storied history of it, but it's racist in a modern way which is worse in my opinion. Yes, Costner's John Dunbar views the Indians' lifestyle with a respect which was fairly uncommon in films (although he wasn't the first to buy into the "noble savage" bit).

However, in the end, the film is about a white man who not only gains acceptance into this tribe, but ascends to his natural place to be their leader and saviour.

For a more recent film which pretty much ripped off the story completely, check out Avatar, which is in every way Dances With Wolves on another planet.

sh987

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by sh987

If there's a western I hated most, it would Dances With Wolves. It's a racist film in a genre that has a long and storied history of it, but it's racist in a modern way which is worse in my opinion. Yes, Costner's John Dunbar views the Indians' lifestyle with a respect which was fairly uncommon in films (although he wasn't the first to buy into the "noble savage" bit).

However, in the end, the film is about a white man who not only gains acceptance into this tribe, but ascends to his natural place to be their leader and saviour.
sh987

I think that's a rather harsh and unjust critique myself, although of course sh987's opinion is every bit as valid as mine and he has a perfect right to it. You could extend this damning analysis to dismiss the seminal and excellent A Man Called Horse; Run of the Arrow; Jeremiah Johnson among others. You could even tar The Outlaw, Josie Wales with this brush. It isn't racist to portray interaction between native American and European-American characters on terms of equality and respect and frankly that's what Costner did in Dances With Wolves.

[snorkie]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

There was another rather interesting film called Hour of the Gun with Jason Robards as Holliday which was thoughtful as well as action packed and had intriguing comments to make on the ultimate futility of mere revenge.

Wonderful film with James Garner as a very surly Wyatt Earp. Interesting that in this film that Doc Holiday is the voice of reason.

Regarding the idea that Clementine Carter's school indicates that the Earps made Tombstone safe: In actuality, it may have been another rather famous lawman, one time ranger Texas John Slaughter who did the job after Earps departure. I've searched a number of sources for information on just what Slaughter was doing during the Earp-Clanton war. My best guess is that Slaughter was so dangerous that both sides stayed well clear of him. One friend of John Slaughter said Texas John was the meanest good man he ever met.

[sh987]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

I think that's a rather harsh and unjust critique myself, although of course sh987's opinion is every bit as valid as mine and he has a perfect right to it. You could extend this damning analysis to dismiss the seminal and excellent A Man Called Horse; Run of the Arrow; Jeremiah Johnson among others. You could even tar The Outlaw, Josie Wales with this brush. It isn't racist to portray interaction between native American and European-American characters on terms of equality and respect and frankly that's what Costner did in Dances With Wolves.

I don't mean to be unfairly hard on Costner with my take on this movie. Compared to earlier westerns, the lead character's views of the Indians are light years ahead of its time. I hoped that I made my recognition of that understood in my previous post, but I can see how I didn't. To re-state, I can see the good side of the movie in that sense. Whereas, in most westerns, the Indians are almost always sub-human savages or exist simply to shoot or be shot at, Costner's characterizations paint them as multi-layered human beings. It is not in that respect that I nevertheless suggest the movie has racist overtones.

I might be in a distinct minority that sees it this way, and if so, that's fine. Why does Costner not stop at his human portrayal of the natives in this movie? While they're shown as having plenty to teach Dunbar, in the end it's the Johnny-come-lately white man that not only gains acceptance but acts as their white saviour. This is where I see racism, or perhaps it's better put as white guilt? We've seen the same previously in Clavell's Shogun, and later in The Last Samurai. If these stories see the native characters as equal, as being worthy of working along-side, then why the invariable turn for the foreign caucasian man to lead them? The answer I can't help but take from it is that the natives must not be able to do so, or else they wouldn't need Kevin Costner, Clint Eastwood, Richard Chamberlain, Tom Cruise, etc, to do it for them.

I don't mean to ramble. I realize that I'm new here, and I don't wish to ruffle anybody's feathers right away. I respect other's opinions and hope that I'm not coming across as accusing fans of these pictures of being racist. I SUGGEST NO SUCH THING.

I just wanted to give my own take on this movie, and understand that I may be entirely isolated in that view. Regardless, I enjoy the chat.



sh987

[tabler]

I just wanted to give my own take on this movie, and understand that I may be entirely isolated in that view. Regardless, I enjoy the chat.

Buddy, whether we agree or disagree with your opinions, it is always good to see reasoned, intelligent well mannered posts in GD.

Keep up the good work!

As I have said in previous posts in this thread, Dances With Wolves is surely Costners finest hour?

[scoundrel]

This one is an action thriller which could almost as easily have been set as a film noir in the urban jungle or as a war movie. This is certainly a noir-ish western which experiments boldly with the traditional white hats-black hats dialectic of the genre to produce a very intelligent alternative take on the morality play theme, where black and white merges with varying shades of grey and everyone, “good” or “bad”, is a credible character with clear motivations. The key players all make good use of a tautly written storyline and dialogue, profiting also from the accomplished and experienced directing of John Sturges.

Robert Taylor, an actor I usually find very 2 dimensional, delivers what is, for him, a rather subtle, hard edged but bleakly witty performance as Jake Wade, the central anti-hero. He is the Marshall of Cold Stream and seemingly a respectable figure, but in reality he is hiding from his dark past as a Confederate marauder in the Arkansas guerrilla wars who ignored General Lee’s decision to surrender and carried on robbing banks and shooting at Yankees, morphing instantly from Confederate soldier to a sort of James brother like outlaw. His gang was jointly led by Robert Taylor’s Wade, who was the brains and what passed for the conscience of the outfit, and by the energetic, tactically ingenious and implacable Clint Hollister, superbly fleshed out and brought to life by the always excellent Richard Widmark. But Wade was captured in a botched raid in which a young boy was accidentally killed in crossfire; Hollister very boldly rescued him from under the noses of a lynch mob; Wade split off from the rest of the gang, never to return. Just to make it all more exasperating, the $20,000 stolen from the bank was on Wade’s horse. Oh dear.

The core of this film is the revenge theme, all the more poisonous because Wade and Hollister have a very ambiguous back history of rivalry and tension, and yet were genuinely once friends as well as war comrades. Widmark’s Hollister is a cold and pitiless villain, a bad spirit determined to persevere as an outlaw, bank robber, bandit and nihilistic wrecker of other people’s lives, mainly because God made him that way. Widmark could do that sort of character in his sleep. Yet Hollister’s particular beef with Jake Wade is intensely personal: the $20,000 is annoying, but what is really at issue is Wade’s abrupt decision to run away and leave the gang to its’ own devices. Even Hollister believes in loyalty and is genuinely shocked and offended by this breach of trust. When he is caught himself and Wade feels obliged to redeem the debt of honour by violently liberating him from jail, this return of the favour does nothing to appease this central grievance of friendship forsaken. The inversion of a usual plotline, where in fact the hero betrayed the villain and the villain has a perfectly valid grievance and perfectly understandable point of view, is part of what makes The Law and Jake Wade so intriguing and fascinating a drama.

Naturally, when Wade discloses that he buried the dirty money in the desert, rather than being appeased by knowing that Wade didn’t actually steal the money for his own gain, Hollister quite correctly analyses Wade’s motivation as personal revulsion and disgust for Hollister and Hollister’s role in Wade’s fallen life. It is as though Faust has jilted Mephistopheles and welched on the bargain, refusing at the last minute to sell his soul. Although there is nothing homo-erotic going on, there is a strong theme of emotional rather than sexual jealousy. Wade has shunned his old friend, openly despising him and despising himself for ever having been Hollister’s friend. Hollister scorns the hypocrisy of all this with the deadly accuracy of a smart bomb but is genuinely wounded and angered by what he feels, with some reason, to be very shabby treatment. Just to rub salt into Hollister’s wounded ego, it turns out that Wade’s turning respectable has involved engagement to the beautiful Peggy. Patricia Owens is highly decorative but also spirited, brave and tough as nails, doing justice to Peggy as a lady but also a frontier woman, someone who Hollister takes seriously as a dangerous enemy who needs to be watched carefully. But in spite of that she is Wade’s Achilles Heel, the hostage to fortune whom Hollister can and does exploit in order to force Wade to lead him to the $20,000.

The kidnapping of Peggy also has a deeper meaning. She represents Wade’s decision to reform, turn respectable and repudiate the outlaws. She is in fact the rival for whom Wade forsook Hollister and the rest of the gang. Hollister wants the $20,000 but even more than this he wants to shame Wade in Peggy’s eyes and spoil Wade’s dream.

Dragged off into the mountain wilderness, Wade and Peggy are forced into a heroes/heroines journey which tests their love and mutual loyalty to the extreme limit. One by one, the foot soldiers of Hollister’s gang emerge as distinct and sharply drawn personalities with their own agendas and motivations, whose loyalty to Clint Hollister is not unconditional, and who are themselves in varying degrees susceptible to the temptation of their worse and better natures, the latent urge to either stab Clint in the back or, even more insidiously, follow Jake Wade’s example, wash their hands of the outlaw life and turn good. Peggy and Jake play these characters off against one another quite cleverly, Peggy using her ingenuous ladylike charm to work the sympathy angle while Jake Wade subtly poses the question of why they are still doing the same old same old when they are smart enough to know better.

Richard Widmark really shines in this second half of the film as the dynamic presence who rules an increasingly fractious and reluctant gang by sheer force of personality and who sticks remorselessly to his goals. Recovering the lost $20,000 is increasingly a secondary matter. The real point has been to enforce Clint’s status as the alpha male and to punish Wade for betraying him and undermining his authority, and the action becomes a battle of wits and wills, a power struggle between prisoners and captor for the soul of the gang. There is a violent confrontation with Comanche Indians, whose territory is being violated, before the final confrontation, where the one surviving member of Hollister’s gang makes his mind up where he stands and takes Peggy to safety, leaving a clear field for Hollister and Wade to settle their irreconcilable differences in the old style. The ending is logical and satisfying, as is the entire film, a psychological drama dressed up as a horse opera. It's a very good film.

[stan17]

True Grit
The Outlaw Jose Wales
Bandolero
Tombstone
Unforgiven
The Magnificent Seven
High Noon
Shane

[Mal Hombre]

The Law and Jake Wade features DeForest Kelley in one His patented soft spoken smiling villain roles which were His speciality before Star Trek came along.