Questions for our American friends - Page 23

**demsal8** · August 1st, 2010, 08:10 AM

Scoundrel - you made a couple of mistakes in your statements. First, the US Government does not run the Area 51 complex. The US Air Force does. If you saw "The Right Stuff" you should realize that Chuck Yeager did all his test flying at Edwards Air Force Base in southern California. Problem was that too many people knew about it and it is located just south of Interstate 10, a major super highway running from Los Angeles to Florida. It's still in use and serves as an alternate landing location for the Space Shuttle on occasions. But the Air Force wanted someplace to do their work where secret airplanes taking off and landing would not be in full view of the general public. Therefore, Area 51 was developed in the 50's and has been expanded at various times.

Second, the CIA is prohibited by law from operating inside the boundaries of the United States. Their venue is the rest of the world. Inside the US is reserved for the FBI which only occasionally sends people elsewhere to help or do research. The applicable alphabet soup you are seeking is the NSA, National Security Agency which is closely associated with the military and operates anywhere in the world. And I don't believe anyone official has denied the existance of Area 51, they just refuse to discuss it.

Night Haunter - right arm! Those signs have been shown on TV shows and, while I can't confirm the actual text, the quote you made gives the right impression. I think the actual text is a bit more wordy. There was at one time, maybe fifteen years ago, one small section of public land which overlooked the actual complex but the government bought it up and now places the boundary where you cannot see any part of the building or runway. At about the same time, they posted those signs. Every show I've ever seen from that area always has Military Police in the background with loaded weapons.

**scoundrel** · August 1st, 2010, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by demsal8

Scoundrel - you made a couple of mistakes in your statements. First, the US Government does not run the Area 51 complex. The US Air Force does.

A distinction without a lot of difference I think: the USAF is a servant and an organ of the US Government and, broadly speaking, does as it is told (most of the time).

Quote:

Originally Posted by demsal8

Second, the CIA is prohibited by law from operating inside the boundaries of the United States. Their venue is the rest of the world. Inside the US is reserved for the FBI which only occasionally sends people elsewhere to help or do research. The applicable alphabet soup you are seeking is the NSA, National Security Agency which is closely associated with the military and operates anywhere in the world. And I don't believe anyone official has denied the existance of Area 51, they just refuse to discuss it.

Same deal when it comes to the CIA being forbidden by law to operate inside the boundries of the USA, I would suspect. They too are Federal Government employees and obey the law...most of the time.

However your point re Area 51 and the CIA is well taken and thanks for the correction.

**demsal8** · August 1st, 2010, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scoundrel

A distinction without a lot of difference I think: the USAF is a servant and an organ of the US Government and, broadly speaking, does as it is told (most of the time).

Same deal when it comes to the CIA being forbidden by law to operate inside the boundries of the USA, I would suspect. They too are Federal Government employees and obey the law...most of the time.

However your point re Area 51 and the CIA is well taken and thanks for the correction.

If the signs noted by Night Haunter didn't give you a hint, many divisions of our government don't like to share. They especially don't like to share their toys when there are top secret projects being worked on. Area 51 is a US Air Force base and no other departments of the government are welcome to come browsing through the asiles or kicking the tires.

The CIA; yeah, maybe. They've been known to bend the rules before including taking sides in US politics. But if they cross Congress they will find their funds cut severely, even if they are supposed to be outside the checks and balances; their budget is not subject to Congressional scrutiny.

Can we get on to something lighter, please. This is supposed to be a fun site. At least for some of us.

**theequestrian** · August 1st, 2010, 05:22 PM

tygrkhat40 you want my response. Ok. Here it is. (Sorry folks, in order to address all the questions posed this post will be fairly long) I will answer your questions in the order you asked them.
But first. You are correct that MLB umpire Don Denkinger cost the St.Louis Cardinals game 6 in the 1985 world series on one of the worst blown call in baseball history. Mr Denkinger has a full sized poster of that blown call hanging in his living room. He has admitted his mistake and apologized for it endlessly. In an otherwise very distinguished career it will marr him forever. And yes you are correct that it did cost the Cardinals the world series ON THAT DAY. However what actually cost St. Louis the series was Kansas City beating them 11-0 in game 7.
Your mention of Tim Donaghy is spurious. Yes he bet on games. Yes he was indicted for it. Those 2 facts however do not address whether he was a competant official or not-which was the subject I was commenting on.
1.NFL officials being subject to a FBI background check also in no way speaks to their competancy in actually calling a game. (Unless, of course, said FBI check consists of showing prospective officials game tapes and asking them if they would have called a penalty or not on a particular play) When I used the word 'vetted' it was meant in connection to their knowledge-or lack thereof-of football rules and how to apply them, not whether they were on a terrorism watch list.

2. I work in the master control room of THE american sports network (which I shall not name but you know which one I mean) In the course of my job I watch more NFL games, NFL replays, postgame interviews et.al than anyone else in america who doesn't work for my network. I don't need Elias Sports Bureau statistics to tell me how bad the officiating is. I have the ability to watch a play from 5 different angles in super slo-mo ad nauseum.
The simple fact is this NFL officials ARE wrong @ 50% of the time.

3.Rule changes since the 2000 season. I will ONLY list rules that effect on field play.

2000
Instant replay renewed with the same rules.

Celebrations limited to one player. Fines will be assessed for celebrations by two or more players.

Anyone wearing an eligible number (1-49 and 80-89) can play at quarterback without having to check in with the referee.

2001
Instant replay renewed for three years with the same rules.

Fumble recoveries will be awarded at the spot of the recovery, not where the player's momentum carries him.

Protecting the passer will be emphasized even more.

Taunting rules will be tightened, with 15-yard unsportsmanlike-conduct penalties flagged.

Bandannas and stocking caps are out, but skullcaps with the team colors and logos are OK.

2002
A player who touches a pylon remains in-bounds until any part of his body touches the ground out-of-bounds.

Continuing-action fouls now become dead-ball fouls and will result in the loss of down and distance.

Any dead-ball penalties by the offense after they have made the line to gain will result in a loss of 15 yards and a new first-and-10 series.

The act of batting and stripping the ball from player possession is legalized.

The chop-block technique is illegal on kicking plays.

It is illegal to hit a quarterback helmet-to-helmet anytime after a change of possession.

After a kickoff, the game clock will start when the ball is touched legally in the field of play; the two-minute exception is eliminated.

Inside of two minutes, the game clock will not stop when the player who originally takes the snap is tackled behind the line of scrimmage.

2003
Officials will be kept together as a single crew during the playoffs. This is a change from past seasons when "all-star" officiating crews worked the post season.

2004
Instant replay was extended for five years and adjusted to give teams an extra challenge if both previous challenges were successful.

"Flamboyant" celebrations will be penalized automatically for 15 yards.

Wide receivers allowed to wear numbers 11-19 for the increased amount of retired numbers, as well as more players at wide receiver and tight end (who also wear numbers in the 80s) coming into the league.

2005
The "horse-collar tackle", in which a defender grabs inside the back or side of an opponent's shoulder pads and pulls that player down, is prohibited. Named the "Roy Williams Rule" after the Dallas Cowboys defensive back whose horse-collar tackle during the last season caused a serious and nearly season-ending injury to Philadelphia Eagles wide receiver Terrell Owens.

Peel-back blocks (where an offensive player blocks a defender who is moving back toward the direction of his own end zone) below the waist and from the back are now illegal.

Unnecessary roughness would be called for blocks away from the play on punters or kickers, similar to the same protection quarterbacks have after interceptions.

When time is stopped by officials prior to the snap for any reason while time is in, the play clock resumes with the same amount of time that remained on it - with a minimum of 10 seconds. Previously, the play-clock would be reset to 25 seconds.

During field goal and extra point attempts, the defensive team will be penalized for unsportsmanlike conduct if it calls consecutive timeouts in an attempt to "ice" the kicker. Previously, the second timeout request was only denied by officials, and thus could be used to distract the kickers.

Players cannot run, dive into, cut, or throw their bodies against or on an opponent who is out of the play or should not have reasonably anticipated such contact.

If the defensive team commits a dead ball foul following the end of the half, the offensive team may choose to extend the period for one more play. Previously, the half automatically ended without the defensive team being penalized.

During a punt, if the kicking team illegally touches the ball inside the 5-yard line, the receiving team has the option of either treating the result as a touchback or replaying the down with a 5-yard penalty against the kicking team. Previously, the receiving team's only options were either the latter or taking over possession at the spot of the foul. This change prevents an ineligible player from keeping a kick from entering the end zone and becoming a touchback.

If the kicking team commits a penalty, the receiving team can have the option of adding five yards to the return or taking a penalty and forcing the kicking team to re-kick the ball. Previously they could take the latter or decline the penalty.

If a team calls for an instant replay challenge after it has used all its challenges or is out of timeouts, it will be assessed an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty. The penalty will also be assessed if a team calls for a challenge inside of two minutes of either half or overtime, when only the replay assistant can initiate reviews. Previously, the request was only denied by the Referee. This change was made to prevent head coaches from constantly stopping the game for any reason, including to just argue with the Referee.

Teams are only able to request an instant replay challenge by tossing their red flag to get the attention of officials. The league decided to do away with the electronic pager/vibrating alert system used by head coaches because practically all of them always used their red flags instead of their pagers anyway. (However, the replay assistant will still use the pagers to notify the officials of a replay request).

2006
End zone celebrations are more restricted. Players cannot celebrate by using any type of prop, or do any act in which they are on the ground. Players may still spike, spin the ball, or dunk it over the goal posts. Dancing in the end zone is also permitted as long as it is not a prolonged or group celebration.

Defenders are prohibited from hitting a passer in the knee or below unless they are blocked into him. This rule was enacted in response to the previous season's injuries to Cincinnati Bengals quarterback Carson Palmer, Pittsburgh Steelers' Ben Roethlisberger, and Tampa Bay Buccaneers' Brian Griese.

Down-by-contact calls can now be reviewed by instant replay to determine if a player fumbled the ball before he was down, and who recovered it. Previously, these plays could not be reversed once officials blew the whistle.

The "horse-collar tackle" rule enacted during the previous 2005 season is expanded. Players are now prohibited from tackling a ball carrier from the rear by tugging inside his jersey. Previously, it was only illegal if the tackler's hand got inside the player's shoulder pads.

To reduce injuries, defensive players cannot line up directly over the long snapper during field goal and extra point attempts.

2007
The instant replay system, used since the 1999 season, was finally made a permanent officiating tool. Previously, it was renewed on a biennial basis.

The system has also been upgraded to use high-definition technology. However, the systems at Texas Stadium (Dallas Cowboys), RCA Dome (Indianapolis Colts), and Giants Stadium (New York Giants and Jets) will not receive the HDTV updates since those stadiums will be replaced over the next few years. One reason that the technology was improved was that fans with high-definition televisions at home were having better views on replays than the officials and according to Dean Blandino, the NFL's instant replay director "that could have bit us in the rear if we continued with the old system." In addition, the amount of time allotted for the referee to review a play was reduced from 90 seconds to one minute.

After a play is over, players who spike the ball in the field of play, other than in the end zone, will receive a 5-yard delay of game penalty.

Forward passes that unintentionally hit an offensive lineman before an eligible receiver will no longer be an illegal touching penalty, but deliberate actions are still penalized.

Roughing-the-passer penalties will not be called on a defender engaged with a quarterback who simply extends his arms and shoves the passer to the ground.

During situations where crowd noise becomes a problem (when it becomes too loud that it prevents the offensive team from hearing its signals), the offense can no longer ask the referee to reset the play clock.

It is necessary to have the ball touch the pylon or break the plane above the pylon to count as a touchdown. Previously, a player just had to have some portion of his body over the goal line or pylon to count a touchdown.

A completed catch is now when a receiver gets two feet down and has control of the ball. Previously, a receiver had to make "a football move" in addition to having control of the ball for a reception.

Players will be subject to a fine from the league for playing with an unbuckled chin strap. Officials will not penalize for chin strap violations during a game.

2008
One defensive player will be allowed to wear a radio similar to the one worn by the quarterback to communicate with the coaching staff.

The "force-out" rule on catches made near the sidelines has been eliminated. A receiver now must come down with the ball and both feet in bounds for a pass to be ruled complete; previously, passes would be ruled complete if the receiver was pushed by a defender while in the air and the official judged that he would have come down in bounds had he not been pushed.

The 5-yard incidental grabbing of the face mask penalty has been eliminated, though intentional grabbing of the face mask will remain a 15-yard penalty.

Teams that win the opening coin toss now have the option to defer the decision until the start of the second half, the same as in college football.

Field goal attempts that bounce off the goal post are now reviewable under instant replay. This change followed a decision during the previous season during a Browns-Ravens game when Phil Dawson's game-tying field goal hit an upright, then the crossbar and the back of the goal post.

Legal forward hand offs that touch the ground and attempted snaps when the ball hits the ground before the quarterback touches it are now considered fumbles; previously, forward hand offs were treated as incomplete passes, while a snap that hit the ground before the quarterback touched it was a five-yard illegal procedure penalty.

2009
The rule regarding balls in play that strike an object such as a video board or a guy wire: In addition for the down being replayed, the game clock will also be reset to the time when the original play was snapped. This change currently only applies for this year, allowing the league to have the option of ordering the video displays to be raised for next season.

In November the United States Congress held hearings regarding NFL players on the field receiving concussions and other major injuries. Strong recommendations were made to the commissioner, and on December 2, 2009 NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell issued a memo effective immediately stating, in part: "Once removed for the duration of a practice or game, the player should not be considered for return-to-football activities until he is fully asymptotic, both at rest and after exertion, has a normal neurological examination, normal neuropsychological testing, and has been cleared to return by both his team physician(s) and the independent neurological consultant."

A blindside block cannot be initially delivered by a helmet, forearm or shoulder to an opponent's head or neck.

The initial contact to the head of a defenseless receiver is also prohibited.

A defensive player on the ground may no longer lunge or dive at the quarterback's lower legs.

On kickoffs, a blocking wedge cannot consist of more than two players.

During onside kickoff attempts, the kicking team cannot have more than five players bunched together.

Loose balls that could have been the result of a fumble or an incomplete pass are now subject to video review.

Video replay can be used to determine if a loose ball stayed in bounds or hit the sideline.

If an onside kick does not go 10 yards, goes out of bounds, or is touched illegally at anytime during the kick, the ball is immediately awarded to the receiving team. This amends a rule that was first implemented during the 2003 season.

On all fumbles and laterals that go out of bounds, the clock will immediately start when the referee signals ready for play instead of waiting until next snap.

4. Subjective vs. objective rules:
An objective rule is one where if you called 3 officials over and asked their opinion they would ALL be in agreement. ie. Delay of Game; Offsides; whether an extra-point was good or not; In-eligible receiver etc.
A subjective rule is one where the same 3 officials would NOT necessarily reach the same conclusion. ie. Pass Interference (both offensive and defensive); spotting the ball; breaking the plane of the goaline; the 'Tuck' rule; forward laterals; down by contact; whether a ball was actually fumbled or not; force outs; whistling a play dead. etc.

I hope I have answered your questions

In America w stand in line-unless you are in New York City. There you stand On line

**DTravel** · August 1st, 2010, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scoundrel

Would this be the same US Government which said that Hydrogen bomb tests in the desert were completely safe? Of course, the easiest way to prove that there is no secret government research facility in Area 51 would be to go there...

The aliens and flying saucers are the stuff of B Movie fantasy but it does stand to reason that the US Government does have research facilities, if not at Area 51, then somewhere. If I were a senior person in the CIA I would hugely value the Area 51 myth and do everything I could to encourage it, including making public denials. They might as well give Captain Paranoia a hobby horseto play with, to keep him amused and out of their hair. It's called "disinformation."

There was a court case wherein employees of Area 51 tried to sue the US Government over the health problems they were having as a result of the failure of the facility to legally dispose of toxic wastes. (They were dumping them into an open trench, emptying a barrel of jet fuel into the trench and then lighting it on fire.) For many years the government's position was, literally, "There is no government facility there". The surviving plaintiffs were eventually able to provide sufficient proof for the judge and the judge was able to force the government to settle, whereupon the President signed an executive order that in effect said "There is no facility there and if there was it would be exempt from these laws."

**dbailey** · August 1st, 2010, 09:14 PM

Ok, the family are coming to Anaheim and San diego this summer. I know about Disney, Universal, Sea World and The Zoo.

Anything else that I shouldnt miss.

Also

Most years we get to Orlando/Kissimmee at least for one week.

Which war bird museums are family suitable? (wife mainly as have two sons)

**keefriff** · August 1st, 2010, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbailey

Ok, the family are coming to Anaheim and San diego this summer. I know about Disney, Universal, Sea World and The Zoo.

Anything else that I shouldnt miss.

Also

Most years we get to Orlando/Kissimmee at least for one week.

Which war bird museums are family suitable? (wife mainly as have two sons)

For military museums in SD I would suggest these two:

http://www.veteranmuseum.org/index.html

http://www.sandiegoairandspace.org/

**tygrkhat40** · August 1st, 2010, 11:00 PM

Equestrian

OK, so the NFL institutes a lot of rule changes. But so do the NBA, NHL NCAA, MLB and NASCAR. Some of what you listed are subjective, others are not. Others, I question how they affect on the field play, such as the banning of bandannas. That was one of the fashion rules instituted by Tagliabue. He felt it was OK for the players to act like thugs on the field, but they couldn't look like one on the sidelines.

You say my mentioning of Tim Donaghy's gambling may have influenced how he called games is spurious, yet I have to accept your judgment that NFL officials are incompetent based on your job? There are many reasons why they seem to be incompetent. How about there are only 14 eyes to watch what 22 men are doing at once? You say the officials may not know all the rules, but what about the players and coaches? Donovan McNabb didn't know that a game ends in a tie after one overtime period, and other players and coaches admitted the same thing. That's a rule that's been in place since 1974.

And at least the NFL doesn't change rules in the of the season like the NHL does. The rule that allowed Brett Hull's goal against the Sabres was changed in the middle of the season, and only team officials knew, the players and coaches didn't.

Ultimately, it comes down to differences of opinion that we really can't resolve, so let's just leave at that. I'd rather let a argument die, that really isn't that important, than let bad feelings fester. It's just not good for anyone.

**TexMadrid** · August 1st, 2010, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbailey

Ok, the family are coming to Anaheim and San diego this summer. I know about Disney, Universal, Sea World and The Zoo.

Anything else that I shouldnt miss.

Been a long time since I have been to Universal Studios. I don't know if they still have this "ride" for lack of a better term. There is this tunnel that you can ride into (might be part of the standard tour/tram ride?). You are in a tour car with attached carts, on the pavement/road and they drive into this tunnel the entire long train/tram. The two ends of the tunnel are closed. They start spinning these lights around in the dark and you feel like you are spinning around, like the entire tram is about to flip over. Everybody starts grabbing the sides of the cars to keep from falling out. The lights turn on and the cart has been on the pavement the entire time!

This was one of the most bizarre unexpected and incredible "rides" I have ever been on. The point: showing the ability to manipulate peoples minds to create illusions and sensations. Really highly recommended! Might be part of the regular on road "tram" ride? If not request.

I hope this does not ruin the surprise, but they warn you of what is about to happen if memory serves. Don't miss this.

Oh one last thing. This had been my first trip to LA in quite awhile. Woke up in my hotel room on the 10th floor or so. Opened my windows and there was thick "fog". But the "fog" never burned off. It can get pretty polluted some days.

**theequestrian** · August 2nd, 2010, 09:46 PM

Tygrkhat40,
I agree with you whole-heartedly. It is, after all, merely a game and nothing more. And yes you are also right in that (at least on this subject) we will never see eye-to-eye. But that after all is one of the wonderful things about engaging in intelligent conversation-as long as the parties respect each others opinions they don't have to agree.
Peace

August 1st, 2010, 08:10 AM	#221
demsal8 R.I.P Join Date: May 2010 Location: Texas, USA Posts: 1,809 Thanks: 27,402 Thanked 33,222 Times in 1,807 Posts	Area 51 et. al. Scoundrel - you made a couple of mistakes in your statements. First, the US Government does not run the Area 51 complex. The US Air Force does. If you saw "The Right Stuff" you should realize that Chuck Yeager did all his test flying at Edwards Air Force Base in southern California. Problem was that too many people knew about it and it is located just south of Interstate 10, a major super highway running from Los Angeles to Florida. It's still in use and serves as an alternate landing location for the Space Shuttle on occasions. But the Air Force wanted someplace to do their work where secret airplanes taking off and landing would not be in full view of the general public. Therefore, Area 51 was developed in the 50's and has been expanded at various times. Second, the CIA is prohibited by law from operating inside the boundaries of the United States. Their venue is the rest of the world. Inside the US is reserved for the FBI which only occasionally sends people elsewhere to help or do research. The applicable alphabet soup you are seeking is the NSA, National Security Agency which is closely associated with the military and operates anywhere in the world. And I don't believe anyone official has denied the existance of Area 51, they just refuse to discuss it. Night Haunter - right arm! Those signs have been shown on TV shows and, while I can't confirm the actual text, the quote you made gives the right impression. I think the actual text is a bit more wordy. There was at one time, maybe fifteen years ago, one small section of public land which overlooked the actual complex but the government bought it up and now places the boundary where you cannot see any part of the building or runway. At about the same time, they posted those signs. Every show I've ever seen from that area always has Military Police in the background with loaded weapons. __________________ Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks. :D Colorizing rules: To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. :) Read the forum rules and follow them and we'll get along just fine. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Last edited by demsal8; August 1st, 2010 at 08:22 AM..

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

August 1st, 2010, 05:22 PM	#224
theequestrian Vintage Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: A hop, skip & a jump from Daytona Beach, Florida Posts: 1,177 Thanks: 4,807 Thanked 11,707 Times in 1,156 Posts	tygrkhat40 you want my response. Ok. Here it is. (Sorry folks, in order to address all the questions posed this post will be fairly long) I will answer your questions in the order you asked them. But first. You are correct that MLB umpire Don Denkinger cost the St.Louis Cardinals game 6 in the 1985 world series on one of the worst blown call in baseball history. Mr Denkinger has a full sized poster of that blown call hanging in his living room. He has admitted his mistake and apologized for it endlessly. In an otherwise very distinguished career it will marr him forever. And yes you are correct that it did cost the Cardinals the world series ON THAT DAY. However what actually cost St. Louis the series was Kansas City beating them 11-0 in game 7. Your mention of Tim Donaghy is spurious. Yes he bet on games. Yes he was indicted for it. Those 2 facts however do not address whether he was a competant official or not-which was the subject I was commenting on. 1.NFL officials being subject to a FBI background check also in no way speaks to their competancy in actually calling a game. (Unless, of course, said FBI check consists of showing prospective officials game tapes and asking them if they would have called a penalty or not on a particular play) When I used the word 'vetted' it was meant in connection to their knowledge-or lack thereof-of football rules and how to apply them, not whether they were on a terrorism watch list. 2. I work in the master control room of THE american sports network (which I shall not name but you know which one I mean) In the course of my job I watch more NFL games, NFL replays, postgame interviews et.al than anyone else in america who doesn't work for my network. I don't need Elias Sports Bureau statistics to tell me how bad the officiating is. I have the ability to watch a play from 5 different angles in super slo-mo ad nauseum. The simple fact is this NFL officials ARE wrong @ 50% of the time. 3.Rule changes since the 2000 season. I will ONLY list rules that effect on field play. 2000 Instant replay renewed with the same rules. Celebrations limited to one player. Fines will be assessed for celebrations by two or more players. Anyone wearing an eligible number (1-49 and 80-89) can play at quarterback without having to check in with the referee. 2001 Instant replay renewed for three years with the same rules. Fumble recoveries will be awarded at the spot of the recovery, not where the player's momentum carries him. Protecting the passer will be emphasized even more. Taunting rules will be tightened, with 15-yard unsportsmanlike-conduct penalties flagged. Bandannas and stocking caps are out, but skullcaps with the team colors and logos are OK. 2002 A player who touches a pylon remains in-bounds until any part of his body touches the ground out-of-bounds. Continuing-action fouls now become dead-ball fouls and will result in the loss of down and distance. Any dead-ball penalties by the offense after they have made the line to gain will result in a loss of 15 yards and a new first-and-10 series. The act of batting and stripping the ball from player possession is legalized. The chop-block technique is illegal on kicking plays. It is illegal to hit a quarterback helmet-to-helmet anytime after a change of possession. After a kickoff, the game clock will start when the ball is touched legally in the field of play; the two-minute exception is eliminated. Inside of two minutes, the game clock will not stop when the player who originally takes the snap is tackled behind the line of scrimmage. 2003 Officials will be kept together as a single crew during the playoffs. This is a change from past seasons when "all-star" officiating crews worked the post season. 2004 Instant replay was extended for five years and adjusted to give teams an extra challenge if both previous challenges were successful. "Flamboyant" celebrations will be penalized automatically for 15 yards. Wide receivers allowed to wear numbers 11-19 for the increased amount of retired numbers, as well as more players at wide receiver and tight end (who also wear numbers in the 80s) coming into the league. 2005 The "horse-collar tackle", in which a defender grabs inside the back or side of an opponent's shoulder pads and pulls that player down, is prohibited. Named the "Roy Williams Rule" after the Dallas Cowboys defensive back whose horse-collar tackle during the last season caused a serious and nearly season-ending injury to Philadelphia Eagles wide receiver Terrell Owens. Peel-back blocks (where an offensive player blocks a defender who is moving back toward the direction of his own end zone) below the waist and from the back are now illegal. Unnecessary roughness would be called for blocks away from the play on punters or kickers, similar to the same protection quarterbacks have after interceptions. When time is stopped by officials prior to the snap for any reason while time is in, the play clock resumes with the same amount of time that remained on it - with a minimum of 10 seconds. Previously, the play-clock would be reset to 25 seconds. During field goal and extra point attempts, the defensive team will be penalized for unsportsmanlike conduct if it calls consecutive timeouts in an attempt to "ice" the kicker. Previously, the second timeout request was only denied by officials, and thus could be used to distract the kickers. Players cannot run, dive into, cut, or throw their bodies against or on an opponent who is out of the play or should not have reasonably anticipated such contact. If the defensive team commits a dead ball foul following the end of the half, the offensive team may choose to extend the period for one more play. Previously, the half automatically ended without the defensive team being penalized. During a punt, if the kicking team illegally touches the ball inside the 5-yard line, the receiving team has the option of either treating the result as a touchback or replaying the down with a 5-yard penalty against the kicking team. Previously, the receiving team's only options were either the latter or taking over possession at the spot of the foul. This change prevents an ineligible player from keeping a kick from entering the end zone and becoming a touchback. If the kicking team commits a penalty, the receiving team can have the option of adding five yards to the return or taking a penalty and forcing the kicking team to re-kick the ball. Previously they could take the latter or decline the penalty. If a team calls for an instant replay challenge after it has used all its challenges or is out of timeouts, it will be assessed an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty. The penalty will also be assessed if a team calls for a challenge inside of two minutes of either half or overtime, when only the replay assistant can initiate reviews. Previously, the request was only denied by the Referee. This change was made to prevent head coaches from constantly stopping the game for any reason, including to just argue with the Referee. Teams are only able to request an instant replay challenge by tossing their red flag to get the attention of officials. The league decided to do away with the electronic pager/vibrating alert system used by head coaches because practically all of them always used their red flags instead of their pagers anyway. (However, the replay assistant will still use the pagers to notify the officials of a replay request). 2006 End zone celebrations are more restricted. Players cannot celebrate by using any type of prop, or do any act in which they are on the ground. Players may still spike, spin the ball, or dunk it over the goal posts. Dancing in the end zone is also permitted as long as it is not a prolonged or group celebration. Defenders are prohibited from hitting a passer in the knee or below unless they are blocked into him. This rule was enacted in response to the previous season's injuries to Cincinnati Bengals quarterback Carson Palmer, Pittsburgh Steelers' Ben Roethlisberger, and Tampa Bay Buccaneers' Brian Griese. Down-by-contact calls can now be reviewed by instant replay to determine if a player fumbled the ball before he was down, and who recovered it. Previously, these plays could not be reversed once officials blew the whistle. The "horse-collar tackle" rule enacted during the previous 2005 season is expanded. Players are now prohibited from tackling a ball carrier from the rear by tugging inside his jersey. Previously, it was only illegal if the tackler's hand got inside the player's shoulder pads. To reduce injuries, defensive players cannot line up directly over the long snapper during field goal and extra point attempts. 2007 The instant replay system, used since the 1999 season, was finally made a permanent officiating tool. Previously, it was renewed on a biennial basis. The system has also been upgraded to use high-definition technology. However, the systems at Texas Stadium (Dallas Cowboys), RCA Dome (Indianapolis Colts), and Giants Stadium (New York Giants and Jets) will not receive the HDTV updates since those stadiums will be replaced over the next few years. One reason that the technology was improved was that fans with high-definition televisions at home were having better views on replays than the officials and according to Dean Blandino, the NFL's instant replay director "that could have bit us in the rear if we continued with the old system." In addition, the amount of time allotted for the referee to review a play was reduced from 90 seconds to one minute. After a play is over, players who spike the ball in the field of play, other than in the end zone, will receive a 5-yard delay of game penalty. Forward passes that unintentionally hit an offensive lineman before an eligible receiver will no longer be an illegal touching penalty, but deliberate actions are still penalized. Roughing-the-passer penalties will not be called on a defender engaged with a quarterback who simply extends his arms and shoves the passer to the ground. During situations where crowd noise becomes a problem (when it becomes too loud that it prevents the offensive team from hearing its signals), the offense can no longer ask the referee to reset the play clock. It is necessary to have the ball touch the pylon or break the plane above the pylon to count as a touchdown. Previously, a player just had to have some portion of his body over the goal line or pylon to count a touchdown. A completed catch is now when a receiver gets two feet down and has control of the ball. Previously, a receiver had to make "a football move" in addition to having control of the ball for a reception. Players will be subject to a fine from the league for playing with an unbuckled chin strap. Officials will not penalize for chin strap violations during a game. 2008 One defensive player will be allowed to wear a radio similar to the one worn by the quarterback to communicate with the coaching staff. The "force-out" rule on catches made near the sidelines has been eliminated. A receiver now must come down with the ball and both feet in bounds for a pass to be ruled complete; previously, passes would be ruled complete if the receiver was pushed by a defender while in the air and the official judged that he would have come down in bounds had he not been pushed. The 5-yard incidental grabbing of the face mask penalty has been eliminated, though intentional grabbing of the face mask will remain a 15-yard penalty. Teams that win the opening coin toss now have the option to defer the decision until the start of the second half, the same as in college football. Field goal attempts that bounce off the goal post are now reviewable under instant replay. This change followed a decision during the previous season during a Browns-Ravens game when Phil Dawson's game-tying field goal hit an upright, then the crossbar and the back of the goal post. Legal forward hand offs that touch the ground and attempted snaps when the ball hits the ground before the quarterback touches it are now considered fumbles; previously, forward hand offs were treated as incomplete passes, while a snap that hit the ground before the quarterback touched it was a five-yard illegal procedure penalty. 2009 The rule regarding balls in play that strike an object such as a video board or a guy wire: In addition for the down being replayed, the game clock will also be reset to the time when the original play was snapped. This change currently only applies for this year, allowing the league to have the option of ordering the video displays to be raised for next season. In November the United States Congress held hearings regarding NFL players on the field receiving concussions and other major injuries. Strong recommendations were made to the commissioner, and on December 2, 2009 NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell issued a memo effective immediately stating, in part: "Once removed for the duration of a practice or game, the player should not be considered for return-to-football activities until he is fully asymptotic, both at rest and after exertion, has a normal neurological examination, normal neuropsychological testing, and has been cleared to return by both his team physician(s) and the independent neurological consultant." A blindside block cannot be initially delivered by a helmet, forearm or shoulder to an opponent's head or neck. The initial contact to the head of a defenseless receiver is also prohibited. A defensive player on the ground may no longer lunge or dive at the quarterback's lower legs. On kickoffs, a blocking wedge cannot consist of more than two players. During onside kickoff attempts, the kicking team cannot have more than five players bunched together. Loose balls that could have been the result of a fumble or an incomplete pass are now subject to video review. Video replay can be used to determine if a loose ball stayed in bounds or hit the sideline. If an onside kick does not go 10 yards, goes out of bounds, or is touched illegally at anytime during the kick, the ball is immediately awarded to the receiving team. This amends a rule that was first implemented during the 2003 season. On all fumbles and laterals that go out of bounds, the clock will immediately start when the referee signals ready for play instead of waiting until next snap. 4. Subjective vs. objective rules: An objective rule is one where if you called 3 officials over and asked their opinion they would ALL be in agreement. ie. Delay of Game; Offsides; whether an extra-point was good or not; In-eligible receiver etc. A subjective rule is one where the same 3 officials would NOT necessarily reach the same conclusion. ie. Pass Interference (both offensive and defensive); spotting the ball; breaking the plane of the goaline; the 'Tuck' rule; forward laterals; down by contact; whether a ball was actually fumbled or not; force outs; whistling a play dead. etc. I hope I have answered your questions In America w stand in line-unless you are in New York City. There you stand On line

August 1st, 2010, 09:14 PM	#226
dbailey Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Wharfedale, Yorkshire, UK Posts: 2,298 Thanks: 137,964 Thanked 24,965 Times in 2,218 Posts	Ok, the family are coming to Anaheim and San diego this summer. I know about Disney, Universal, Sea World and The Zoo. Anything else that I shouldnt miss. Also Most years we get to Orlando/Kissimmee at least for one week. Which war bird museums are family suitable? (wife mainly as have two sons)

August 1st, 2010, 11:00 PM	#228
tygrkhat40 Long Suffering Bills Fan Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: The City of Good Neighbors Posts: 9,669 Thanks: 304,243 Thanked 152,323 Times in 9,629 Posts	Equestrian OK, so the NFL institutes a lot of rule changes. But so do the NBA, NHL NCAA, MLB and NASCAR. Some of what you listed are subjective, others are not. Others, I question how they affect on the field play, such as the banning of bandannas. That was one of the fashion rules instituted by Tagliabue. He felt it was OK for the players to act like thugs on the field, but they couldn't look like one on the sidelines. You say my mentioning of Tim Donaghy's gambling may have influenced how he called games is spurious, yet I have to accept your judgment that NFL officials are incompetent based on your job? There are many reasons why they seem to be incompetent. How about there are only 14 eyes to watch what 22 men are doing at once? You say the officials may not know all the rules, but what about the players and coaches? Donovan McNabb didn't know that a game ends in a tie after one overtime period, and other players and coaches admitted the same thing. That's a rule that's been in place since 1974. And at least the NFL doesn't change rules in the of the season like the NHL does. The rule that allowed Brett Hull's goal against the Sabres was changed in the middle of the season, and only team officials knew, the players and coaches didn't. Ultimately, it comes down to differences of opinion that we really can't resolve, so let's just leave at that. I'd rather let a argument die, that really isn't that important, than let bad feelings fester. It's just not good for anyone.

August 2nd, 2010, 09:46 PM	#230
theequestrian Vintage Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: A hop, skip & a jump from Daytona Beach, Florida Posts: 1,177 Thanks: 4,807 Thanked 11,707 Times in 1,156 Posts	Tygrkhat40, I agree with you whole-heartedly. It is, after all, merely a game and nothing more. And yes you are also right in that (at least on this subject) we will never see eye-to-eye. But that after all is one of the wonderful things about engaging in intelligent conversation-as long as the parties respect each others opinions they don't have to agree. Peace