Communism. Good or bad. What do you really know about Communism?

[Dr Pepper]

Originally Posted by Estreeter

You know, I have no idea if that's true or not, but have you stopped for a moment and thought about the past and seen how environmentally responsible communist countries have been

In support of Estreeter's point quoted above, two words : Aral Sea

[Dr Pepper]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

Huh? We have a basic problem. People retire at 65 years, roughly. Then they live, on average another 20 to 25 years. Back in Bismarck's day, when the 65 year retirement age was first set-- people typically didn't live that long.

The advanced industrial world has remarkably good health and long life. Every nation, from Japan to Denmark to New Zealand, has to deal with the financial challenge of funding a very long retirement, hence pension funds.

And we in NZ have already concluded the current system is unsustainable-and the retirement/pension age will have to go up.....(the current preferred future figure is to 67)- politically the government that enacts this change will have signed its own death warrant....despite all but the terminally stupid understanding why it will be necessary.....

[Arturo2nd]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

Huh? We have a basic problem. People retire at 65 years, roughly. Then they live, on average another 20 to 25 years. Back in Bismarck's day, when the 65 year retirement age was first set-- people typically didn't live that long.

The advanced industrial world has remarkably good health and long life. Every nation, from Japan to Denmark to New Zealand, has to deal with the financial challenge of funding a very long retirement, hence pension funds.




No, its not. This is the point that you really miss. You're eager to see a commissar with a gun ordering farmers to produce food, telling them what price to sell it at, and indeed shooting them if they don't.

Adam Smith and the market is about choice-- people choosing what transactions to enter, at what price. Some of these choices may be good choices, some may be bad, but they are choices. The beauty of markets is that there is no commissar with a gun to your head dictating your every transaction, your every economic relationship.

Marxists have a blind spot: they seemingly never recognize how much _power_ they are seeking to remove from others, and how narrowly they mean to concentrate it; that is totalitarianism.

Marxists/Communists invariably say "you can't make a choice, the Party makes the choice-- you just follow orders".

And that's how you get Stalin, Mao and the Khmer Rouge.

The beauty of commissars with guns is that there are a lot fewer old people around needing to be supported by younger workers.

My Dad retired at 60 and is now 92 and in good health. Mom retired at 66 and died at 90. I'm 69 and expected to still be working but was forced into retirement. I think I'm basically f*cked.

Ah well, there is a 2 year waiting list for units in my building. Somebody will be happy when I die.

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by Dr Pepper

And we in NZ have already concluded the current system is unsustainable-and the retirement/pension age will have to go up.....(the current preferred future figure is to 67)- politically the government that enacts this change will have signed its own death warrant....despite all but the terminally stupid understanding why it will be necessary.....

And I'd note NZ is considered one of the best funded pension plans in the world.

We do have a global problem with funding retirement -- it's really hard in a working life of, say, 45 years to build enough savings, whether personally or in "the system" to fund another 25 years of quite expensive (because of medical costs) life.

This problem gets even.worse in Japan where the population is shrinking, leaving a lot of old folks dependant on ever fewer working folks.

[Dr Pepper]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

And I'd note NZ is considered one of the best funded pension plans in the world.

We do have a global problem with funding retirement -- it's really hard in a working life of, say, 45 years to build enough savings, whether personally or in "the system" to fund another 25 years of quite expensive (because of medical costs) life.

This problem gets even.worse in Japan where the population is shrinking, leaving a lot of old folks dependant on ever fewer working folks.

People here in NZ rabbit on-usually negatively- about the welfare state-and bludgers getting the benefit etc-it's only when you actually see the figures overall that you realise just how much of the country's GDP-and the welfare budget in particular-is taken up by the superannuitants' pensions-and how little-in % terms-the dole payments account for.Fortunately the superannuation crisis point is still some time away-but unless it is addressed-that just makes the train wreck bigger when it finally happens-and you get the Greece scenario.

And trust me-despite deepsepias positive comments, our NZ welfare system is by no means generous.....(though it may well be prudently funded!) quite how the Scandinavian countries and the Netherlands -which are considered leading edge, as regards the welfare state- manage it, I have no idea, except to presume that their tax levels must be eye watering.....

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by Dr Pepper

And trust me-despite deepsepias positive comments, our NZ welfare system is by no means generous.....(though it may well be prudently funded!) quite how the Scandinavian countries and the Netherlands -which are considered leading edge, as regards the welfare state- manage it, I have no idea, except to presume that their tax levels must be eye watering.....

It is the lack of generosity that makes it sustainable. Many public pension funds have made promises of generous benefits "in the future"-- they were easy to make at the time-- which now have to be paid for. NZ was quite careful about the promises it made, and so they're easier to keep.

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

The best argument for Marxism as an analytical tool is the emergence of Trump, and that there is a very substantial base that didn't just support him, but celebrates him.

You forget an historical event: "Subprime crisis".
Since that day, Marxism, Christianism, Buddhism will get an indestructible anchor for the eternity: When the Capitalism collapsed.

If Capitalism was saved by the states, it's because our politicians and a huge majority of the lobotomized stooges were not able to see another way to live.

That's the incredible strenght of the Capitalist matrix, because it manipulates one of our most miserable vices: "Greed".

Why greed is that strong in humanity?
I suppose, that's because our common ancesters were greedy.

Originally Posted by Estreeter

You know, I have no idea if that's true or not, but have you stopped for a moment and thought about the past and seen how environmentally responsible communist countries have been

Go on google maps and look at the forests of the former Eastern block.
Huuuuuge primary forests remaining.

Then compare them to the Occidental European forests or the North American ones.
Capitalist forests are small, crossed by roads and parasited by farms or villages.
The rare forests are on steep areas.

You will see who protected the most their land. I can tell you, it wasn't the capitalists.

I confess, uneducated communist leaders made huge environmental mistakes, but in comparison, nothing looking as horrible as capitalist ones.

Sadly, I'm afraid when looking at the last Sochi's games, that Russian capitalist leaders are the same assholes as the Occidental ones.

I'm a member of the WWF. Why do you think that they send me letters to help to protect the last primary European forests, all based in Eastern European countries?
Because in Occidental Europe, there are no more primary forests.
Capitalists monsters put a price on everything. Even on the most important treasure on Earth: nature!

[Estreeter]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

You will see who protected the most their land. I can tell you, it wasn't the capitalists.

I confess, uneducated communist leaders made huge environmental mistakes, but in comparison, nothing looking as horrible as capitalist ones.

Well, at least you admit there were mistakes , I admit it it for the capitalists, never denied it.

I think I asked you this before, I dare you to get everything in your house, apartment or whatever, anything you own that is s direct result of capitalism, throw it out if your that against the system, in fact I'll go so far as to even disconnect your power, I mean the electricity your using is probably generated by a Siemens generator, how much of your communications are satellite based with you even knowing ??? Stove or microwave in your house ??? Fridge ??? ISP ??? Hell, even the books you read might have ink made by a profit making company And the paper in the books, came from some tree might be recycled but sill it came from one once I dare you to completely ditch any and al things in your life that are a result of capitalism

Live without it all for a month and see what you miss and don't miss

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by Estreeter

Well, at least you admit there were mistakes , I admit it it for the capitalists, never denied it.

You can reread all my first posts, I always admitted that old Communism didn't look fair.

Originally Posted by Estreeter

I mean the electricity your using is probably generated by a Siemens generator, how much of your communications are satellite based with you even knowing ??? Stove or microwave in your house ??? Fridge ??? ISP ??? Hell, even the books you read might have ink made by a profit making company And the paper in the books, came from some tree might be recycled but sill it came from one once I dare you to completely ditch any and al things in your life that are a result of capitalism

Live without it all for a month and see what you miss and don't miss

I don't want to be "rude". But it seems that you don't understand where are the dangers of capitalism.
Producing some goods are not a danger. But producing tons of cheap stupid goods is a terrible harmful. Degrading the environment for "fun", is vicious for the next generation.

If everybody on this planet would live like you, would consume like you, at the end, you will finished like the miserable proletarian of the past.
You probably didn't know this fact, but according to studies, the planet today can give the Occidental way of life for 700 millions people. More than 700 millions people and the ecosystem, the raw materials can't regenerate.

It's like if you are the electrical manager on an isolated island with 1000 people. There you only get a electric generator of 500 W. As long as you get 90 people who consume 5 W for their fun and 910 people who consume nothing, that ok. 500 W can deliver (90 x 5 W) 450 W. Now if among the 910 people, only 100 of them want to consume 1 W. 450 + 100 = 550 W... Your electric generator can't deliver this energy.
As electrical manager, you are in trouble.
So what will you do? You are on isolated island (we can call it, the Earth). Will you kill the 100 people, will you ask to the 90 ones to consume less, will you let the hate between people to establish?

You can thank the 4 billions miserable people on this planet to not have the right, the desire, the capacities, to consume like you. Because the day they will consume like you, I'm not sure that you will listen one more time your engine roaring.

Capitalism exploits misery, poor education, poverty, uses dictatorships and doesn't honestly share prosperity.

Are you really a leftist?

[Estreeter]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

Are you really a leftist?

Me Leftist

No A Realist, See I've voted left and right, I never put blind faith in either side and never automatically take sides, most people don't stop and think enough, that's the true danger, stupid people who use blind faith and zero thought, both sides of politics exploit that, please don't even try deny that, it's fact.

For what it's worth, I believe health care should be free to those who can't afford private health, banks should be semi regulated, power generation state owned, government services free for retirees.

I do also believe in competition and free markets, smaller governments, lower taxes, compulsory superannuation so less will be on a government pension.

I live ion a real world, not one of make believe, I don't listen to theories, only actual facts and experiences, anything else is bullshit.