Alternate Universe / Reality - Page 3

woodsman · November 12th, 2009, 01:14 AM

Watchmen, in both comic form and the recent movie. Poses an alternate 80's with Nixon still in power having won the Vietnam war with the help of (some corrupt) supermen/women. Very refreshing to hear the dark side of superheroism.

Aubrey · November 12th, 2009, 09:31 AM

Quote:

However, as soon as Viet Nam was over I noticed that all the peace marches, war demonstrations, "free" love, and other "groovy" stuff disappeared almost as fast as I could blink! Only the very small groups of die-hards remained. Within a few years, peace and universal brotherhood was another NIMBY (generally desired but "not in my back yard" if someone has to take a stand).

The "Me Decade" had taken over with vengence. I still get spasms when I see bell-bottom pants!

In 1968, Frank Zappa said that Revolution was that year's Flower Power, implying that there would be something else the next year (as there was; at least Revolution didn't last).

Manson might not have really ended the hippie movement; but he (and Altamont) certainly put a cap on it.

**brianwp** · November 13th, 2009, 08:48 AM

I can tell you first-hand another thing responsible...drugs. During the sixties when it was all mostly pot and hallucinogens, everybody was friendly and generous. (In lots of ways). But then as more liquor, barbituates, and especially heroin slipped in the door, people started changing. People didn't care much about peace and love anymore..they cared about getting their next fix. That's when people started getting beat and ripped off, not to mention just plain robbed. Before that people would trust each other and turn you on, everyone was just having a good time, you were just a "head". But that all ended when people became addicted to narcotics. By the early 70's you didn't trust anyone anymore, everybody was out for themselves. It's a shame, really. We meant well, but it all turned to shit.

SwedishEroticaFan · November 15th, 2009, 08:09 AM

Manson was the face of the darkside of the counter-culture. And the press had a field day splashing his lurid crimes on the front pages. I agree that Altamont was the final stake through the heart of the Flower Power movement.

Everyone has different perceptions of that era based on his/her experiences. From where I stood, the counter-culture (at least in the US) seemed a rebellion of white, upper-, upper-middle-class youth. The rest of us had been conditioned that we really couldn't make a difference and looked on military service as something that one did as part of the process of becoming an adult.

But you are right that when heroin hit the middle class and was no longer a street drug confined to the "bad" parts of urban areas, all bets were off.

**brianwp** · November 17th, 2009, 09:12 AM

Yeah, I know I'm right, because I was there, on a street level, and I watched it happen. I also watched guys come back from Nam with freakin gorillas on their backs, not the 5-8% shit we were doing, but like 97% pure. I watched those poor bastards squirm and drink quarts and quarts of beer, along with the piss poor dope we had, just to get straight, or try to get to sleep. No drug treatment in those days, and a lot of them didn't make it. Like I said, I know what happened, because I was there.

SwedishEroticaFan · November 17th, 2009, 01:29 PM

Glad to see you survived. Sadly, a lot didn't. My uncle was there also but from another vantage point - he was a narcotics cop in Philly from '66-74. Stories that would make anyone's hair look like Don King's.

**tamsmith** · November 18th, 2009, 12:40 AM

Long before some parts of the world were discovered. The Christians fought for the Holy Lands. For whatever reason!!
To an extent they saved Christianity in the western world, amongst other battles. And for 500 hundred years later.

In an "Alternate Universe/Reality" where would we be now in a "non Christian world".

Would America still be undiscovered?? Would we have 80% illiteracy? Would women be 3rd class citizens?? Would any of the medical and scientific discoveries, that we have had over the last 500years, have actually happened??

If we do not stand up for ourselves then there will be an "Alternate Universe/Reality".

History has told us that so many times.

PS This may stir up a hornets nest.

**brianwp** · November 19th, 2009, 11:23 AM

You think we wouldn't have survived without Christianity? That's a new one. In my modest opinion, we'd probably be further advanced if it had not been for Christianity!

Soft Pillow · November 19th, 2009, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwedishEroticaFan

On a completely different subject, Ted Sorenson and Arthur Schlesinger, two of JFK's advisors, insist he would have not escalated the Vietnam War. I am inclined to doubt it. He certainly would not have pulled out before the 1964 election. And all the people recommending escalation to Johnson in 1964-66 were holdovers from Kennedy's tenure.

JFK may not have sent a half million troops but there would have been several hundred thousand committed by the end of 1966.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwedishEroticaFan

On a completely different subject, Ted Sorenson and Arthur Schlesinger, two of JFK's advisors, insist he would have not escalated the Vietnam War. I am inclined to doubt it. He certainly would not have pulled out before the 1964 election. And all the people recommending escalation to Johnson in 1964-66 were holdovers from Kennedy's tenure.

JFK may not have sent a half million troops but there would have been several hundred thousand committed by the end of 1966.

President Kennedy authorized the withdrawal of 1,000 military advisors on November 20, 1963 so they would be home by Christmas of that year then LBJ met with the political advisors he inherited from Lancer on November 24, 1963 who wanted a complete revision of this policy so it was cancelled. The rest as they say is history. I doubt very much if JFK would have sent combat troops or permitted bombing missions as there would have been a complete withdrawal from Vietnam by 1965 that would have commenced in stages after his re-election in 1964 had he lived...

**tamsmith** · November 19th, 2009, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianwp

You think we wouldn't have survived without Christianity? That's a new one. In my modest opinion, we'd probably be further advanced if it had not been for Christianity!

Interesting attitude.

My opinion is that without Christianity, Pagan, Viking, RC, Protestant, or whatever the "so-called western world" was in the middle ages, the population would never have gone beyond the boundary of the Pacific or Atlantic Ocean. To go into the unknown takes alot of guts.

The other continents, to this day, would still be ruled by the Incas and the "Native Redman" and Maoris/Aborigines. Antartica would be lost forever.

As the other three would not know of their existence.

But without the Christians that would "be the case"??

November 12th, 2009, 01:14 AM	#21
woodsman Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 12 Thanks: 139 Thanked 99 Times in 12 Posts	Watchmen, in both comic form and the recent movie. Poses an alternate 80's with Nixon still in power having won the Vietnam war with the help of (some corrupt) supermen/women. Very refreshing to hear the dark side of superheroism.

November 13th, 2009, 08:48 AM	#23
brianwp Vintage Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: United States Posts: 1,464 Thanks: 4,856 Thanked 25,702 Times in 1,431 Posts	I can tell you first-hand another thing responsible...drugs. During the sixties when it was all mostly pot and hallucinogens, everybody was friendly and generous. (In lots of ways). But then as more liquor, barbituates, and especially heroin slipped in the door, people started changing. People didn't care much about peace and love anymore..they cared about getting their next fix. That's when people started getting beat and ripped off, not to mention just plain robbed. Before that people would trust each other and turn you on, everyone was just having a good time, you were just a "head". But that all ended when people became addicted to narcotics. By the early 70's you didn't trust anyone anymore, everybody was out for themselves. It's a shame, really. We meant well, but it all turned to shit.

November 15th, 2009, 08:09 AM	#24
SwedishEroticaFan Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 127 Thanks: 543 Thanked 909 Times in 120 Posts	Manson was the face of the darkside of the counter-culture. And the press had a field day splashing his lurid crimes on the front pages. I agree that Altamont was the final stake through the heart of the Flower Power movement. Everyone has different perceptions of that era based on his/her experiences. From where I stood, the counter-culture (at least in the US) seemed a rebellion of white, upper-, upper-middle-class youth. The rest of us had been conditioned that we really couldn't make a difference and looked on military service as something that one did as part of the process of becoming an adult. But you are right that when heroin hit the middle class and was no longer a street drug confined to the "bad" parts of urban areas, all bets were off.

November 17th, 2009, 09:12 AM	#25
brianwp Vintage Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: United States Posts: 1,464 Thanks: 4,856 Thanked 25,702 Times in 1,431 Posts	Yeah, I know I'm right, because I was there, on a street level, and I watched it happen. I also watched guys come back from Nam with freakin gorillas on their backs, not the 5-8% shit we were doing, but like 97% pure. I watched those poor bastards squirm and drink quarts and quarts of beer, along with the piss poor dope we had, just to get straight, or try to get to sleep. No drug treatment in those days, and a lot of them didn't make it. Like I said, I know what happened, because I was there.

November 17th, 2009, 01:29 PM	#26
SwedishEroticaFan Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 127 Thanks: 543 Thanked 909 Times in 120 Posts	Glad to see you survived. Sadly, a lot didn't. My uncle was there also but from another vantage point - he was a narcotics cop in Philly from '66-74. Stories that would make anyone's hair look like Don King's.

November 18th, 2009, 12:40 AM	#27
tamsmith Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Coming close to the Slippery Slope. Posts: 7,800 Thanks: 77,915 Thanked 280,415 Times in 9,078 Posts	Long before some parts of the world were discovered. The Christians fought for the Holy Lands. For whatever reason!! To an extent they saved Christianity in the western world, amongst other battles. And for 500 hundred years later. In an "Alternate Universe/Reality" where would we be now in a "non Christian world". Would America still be undiscovered?? Would we have 80% illiteracy? Would women be 3rd class citizens?? Would any of the medical and scientific discoveries, that we have had over the last 500years, have actually happened?? If we do not stand up for ourselves then there will be an "Alternate Universe/Reality". History has told us that so many times. PS This may stir up a hornets nest.

November 19th, 2009, 11:23 AM	#28
brianwp Vintage Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: United States Posts: 1,464 Thanks: 4,856 Thanked 25,702 Times in 1,431 Posts	You think we wouldn't have survived without Christianity? That's a new one. In my modest opinion, we'd probably be further advanced if it had not been for Christianity!