Atheist, are you one??

[Brecht]

Originally Posted by onelucky1

My mrs is a jehovahs witness

Does she knock on the door when returning home?

Well, I admire your stamina, onelucky1. I could never live with a religious fanatic (and Jehovah's Witnesses are fanatics), no matter how big her boobs are. Don't get me wrong because I'm not offending your wife. I only wonder how it works for you since you're an atheist. In my opinion, a long-term relationship (or a life sentence known as marriage) must rest upon some consent. It's not like having different tastes in music.

[howerd]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

I am turning down the volume on your post; hope you don't object but we don't shout on VEF.

http://atheism.about.com/od/definiti...definition.htm

I consider the position you have just set out to be an agnostic position, yes. You have no faith; you analyse the world empirically and on a systematic, rational basis. When you say you do not believe there is any God/are any Gods, you stop short of saying that you positively believe that there is no God/are no Gods. You think God does not exist; but in the absence of irrefutable evidence you decline to nail your colours to the mast. This is quite balanced and rational thinking, but I must decline to accept that you are an atheist. You have an opinion, but for all that, your argument is agnostic, a "don't know" position.

In your definition, an atheist is defined by his/her lack of belief. This is the "weak atheism" position referred to in my link. I (perhaps because I have belief) classify this as an agnostic/non-committal position. Lack of belief is not belief; it is indecision. Atheists know that there is no God, even though they can't prove it; this is the "strong atheism" position referred to in my link. Agnostics ("weak atheists") define themselves through lack of belief; "strong atheists" have a belief. I am making a rather nerdy and nit-picking semantic distinction here but if we are going to have this discussion we should define our terms.

I agree we must define our terms & if you look up in a standard dictionary what an atheist is, it is in essence anyone who does not believe in gods even if they say they do not know -it's really as simple as that. To say 'I consider the position you have just set out to be an agnostic position,' strictly speaking is accurate but you ignore the possibility of being able to not believe at the same time. Yes a few atheists say 'I know there is no God' but actually most don't -read Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens or Dennett (the '4 Horsemen of the Anti-Apocalypse'). They all say they would not claim to be certain any gods exist just as they cannot be certain that ANYTHING does not exist e.g. pixies, elves, fairies etc. To say 'Lack of belief is not belief; it is indecision.' isn't strictly accurate. I would not say I know pixies do not exist because I have decided the remote possibility that they might exist is trivial & that is how I feel about gods as well for exactly the same reason: There is simple no empirical evidence that such things do exist.

I'll say it again: there is a common misconception that you are either an atheist or agnostic. This is wrong because atheists / theism are about what you believe & gnosticism / agnosticism are about what you believe exists. I do not believe in any gods but I do not claim to KNOW none exist -perhaps some do. I do not believe in 'little people' either but as I cannot know there are none of them either I cannot claim to know they do not exist.

Please watch this clip as it explains precisely how one can be both atheist AND agnostic at the same time without any contradiction & why atheism is not just another position of blind faith:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs3RKZjSzYg

[Jacova_fan]

Humph. This thread's been an interesting read. I once again find myself in the minority; I'm a very strong believer in God. (Yeah, a Christian porn-lover; 'never claimed to be perfect...) I see evidence of God all around. I won't start listing what I see as evidence (that would be off-topic), but I do have to ask: could someone explain the Christan who doesn't "believe" dinosaurs existed? I'm a Christan, but I don't get that one...

[howerd]

Originally Posted by Jacova_fan

Humph. This thread's been an interesting read. I once again find myself in the minority; I'm a very strong believer in God. (Yeah, a Christian porn-lover; 'never claimed to be perfect...) I see evidence of God all around. I won't start listing what I see as evidence (that would be off-topic), but I do have to ask: could someone explain the Christan who doesn't "believe" dinosaurs existed? I'm a Christan, but I don't get that one...

Dinosaurs were not mentioned in Genesis. Neither was evolution so some folks refuse to believe in them. It's a psychological phenomena called 'monomania'.

[onelucky1]

she has only recently become a jehovah,s witness,she used to be "normal",she now believes every word in the bible is totally factual ,as I said the conditioning is very good she goes 5 times a week to be brain washed
I have given up now , it,s her life ,let her get on with it
As to the distance between stars not proving anything,you are right ,it dosn,t
I used to work down the mines and at our mine ,about 600 ft down there was a 2ft layer of fossilised cockle shells, I wonder how many million years ago they were alive and was god there for them ,no
Neither does this prove or disprove anything,I know that
The thing is I at least use my eyes and my brain(such as it is}and I like to think that I am not a bigot
You should try getting through to a signed up jehovahs witness ,don,t bother
I,m not even bitter ,I find it very sad and ultimately feel very sorry for them,all the petty little rules
they need a crutch in their lives ,I suppose that as good as any ,even if non of it is true ,it,s true to them
onelucky1

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by Jacova_fan

Humph. This thread's been an interesting read. I once again find myself in the minority; I'm a very strong believer in God. (Yeah, a Christian porn-lover; 'never claimed to be perfect...) I see evidence of God all around. I won't start listing what I see as evidence (that would be off-topic), but I do have to ask: could someone explain the Christan who doesn't "believe" dinosaurs existed? I'm a Christan, but I don't get that one...

There's a fairly large number of them, they are known as Young Earth Creationists. Basically they use similar calculations to those done by the Irish priest James Ussher who counted back the days used in the Bible taking each creation day literally as 1 day and came to the conclusion the Earth was created on 23 October 4004BC
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Earth_creationism

They believe the Earth is only a few thousand years old, so if the Earth is only 10,000 years old and the Bible does not specifically mention dinosaurs and the evidence is that they lived a long time ago the ONLY other options are
1 - that they are fakes to discredit religion or
2 - that it is God's way of testing his followers' faith .... or
3 - that men lived alongside dinosaurs and domesticated them and T-Rex, Allosaurus and all the others were vegetarians and lived in an idyllic Eden. (I'm not making that up ... see below)

I love this book's cover on that same subject and a few sample pages.



Sadly this belief is more widespread than you may think.

[Jeff Vader]

Originally Posted by penfold007

I am an atheist. What I am not is evangelical about it. Everyone has the right to their own opinions, provided that they do not try to impose them on others or discriminate based on them.

It is important to note that not having faith in a deity does not preclude an individual from living their life in a way that could be described as "moral" and acting ethically. A book telling you to act in a particular way is not needed to achieve this.

Absolutely. I've had some interesting discussions with people of varying religions about ethics and morals. My opinion is that it comes mostly from the parents - not school, preachers or TV. I was born outside a very small village in the arse-end of nowhere in Ireland in the early 1970s thus the Catholic church had a very strong influence in the community. My mother has tried to attribute my understanding of right and wrong to what I was taught through religion.

I utterly refute that. I believe in divorce, contraception, gay rights, women priests, married priests, I'm pro-choice - all of which is very contrary to what the Vatican espouses.

Isn't a lot of what we have as right and wrong dependent on the local culture and laws ?

[Brecht]

Originally Posted by onelucky1

she has only recently become a jehovah,s witness,she used to be "normal",she now believes every word in the bible is totally factual ,as I said the conditioning is very good she goes 5 times a week to be brain washed
I have given up now , it,s her life ,let her get on with it
As to the distance between stars not proving anything,you are right ,it dosn,t
I used to work down the mines and at our mine ,about 600 ft down there was a 2ft layer of fossilised cockle shells, I wonder how many million years ago they were alive and was god there for them ,no
Neither does this prove or disprove anything,I know that
The thing is I at least use my eyes and my brain(such as it is}and I like to think that I am not a bigot
You should try getting through to a signed up jehovahs witness ,don,t bother
I,m not even bitter ,I find it very sad and ultimately feel very sorry for them,all the petty little rules
they need a crutch in their lives ,I suppose that as good as any ,even if non of it is true ,it,s true to them
onelucky1

Sooner or later, they're going to put her under pressure because of your disbelief. There used to be a kid in my class back in the school days who is a Jehovah's Witness. He's been brain-washed by his mother since early childhood which affected his entire personality. The way he talks and especially what he says, it's hard to not think that something is very wrong with this guy. And they're a very closed society. For example, they're not allowed to be friends with people who are not of their faith etc., however I guess their chieftains can't control that at all. This particular guy once told me that they believe that other planets are populated by angels. And he was very serious about what he said. Of course, he doesn't believe in evolution and every other scientific fact contradicting to his beliefs. A pretty sad world he lives in.
But worse than fundamentalists are those academic theologians, trying to keep up with the times by producing hypocrisy, who tell you not to take the bible literally but still to believe. Aren't they negating the basic fundaments of their faith? They're just apologits of evangelicals. In 1996, former pope John Paul II. acknowledged evolution as "more than just a theory" (as if someone cared about his opinion) and compatible with the Christian faith. Religion is randomness and the more it gets debunked by science (which is not intentional because science is about research and not ideological arguing), the more hypocrisy and confusion it produces, so you have either people who count on reason or those who, in their post-modern confusion, end up in evangelical circles.
Most people are Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, whatever because they're born into a certain culture and brought up that way. It's not a decision they make themselves except if they decide to convert to another religion or reject it later. Religion is not really a question of what you personally believe in but the culture you were brought up in. People rather choose to belong to a herd of sheep, probably in their fear from being stigmatized for life. You've got this kind of tribalism all over the world, even in western countries like Northern Ireland.

[billybunter]

Ireland was a strange place a few decades ago. The local priest had more powers than the police I was suspicious of them. They loved taking P.E classes and wielding a cane over your backside. One priest hated me. He would find anything to punish me. Coming from Belfast I pronounced "A" EHH he said AHH. He said one day, "that's how foreigners pronounced it"

[rlg118]

I am an atheist. Thank God.