The Military History Thread

[Ernesto75]

Originally Posted by rupertramjet

As a modern commander at Verdun, as soon as the German artillery opened fire, I would call an airstrike and most of it would be obliterated, huge holes would appear in the infantry ranks, and I would then call in either Hercules Gun ships, which would be accompanied by attack helicopters, as well as ground attack aircraft.

Yes, the Americans did it in Vietnam, with moderate success.
They did not think the small Viets were hiding in a gigantic under ground network.
They also did this sort of thing in Afghanistan.
They are still there.

Personnally I prefer the way the Israeli Army (Tsahal) does its strikes, with precision, economy and as little victims as possible.

the ancients in command of the French Armies of 1940, lived in the past, modern commanders do not, we are always open to new ideas and equipment, we are also forced to retire before we get to bloody old, we also do not have, as is the case of most modern armies five star rank, ie Marshalls, because they never retire, so technically a man of 100+ could end up in command!

Quite right.

[Ernesto75]

I thank you all, especially Ennath and Rupertramjet, for this little discussion about a still very sensible subject (at least in France).

I think it is very stimulating to confront each other's ideas.

I send you my best wishes.

[rupertramjet]

Originally Posted by Ernesto75

Yes, the Americans did it in Vietnam, with moderate success.
They did not think the small Viets were hiding in a gigantic under ground network.
They also did this sort of thing in Afghanistan.
They are still there.

Personnally I prefer the way the Israeli Army (Tsahal) does its strikes, with precision, economy and as little victims as possible.

Quite right.

I am a British officer, we have to be very accurate with our fire orders, if we are inaccurate, we will not have enough to do the job!

I was talking in my Verdun scenario about open territory allied to the viewpoints of the French commanders. Not against a modern enemy. I mentioned Giap, a very clever self educated soldier, who very much revelutionised warfare, the most recent war, using more conventional tactics was the Falklands, fire power, and better training, where the two keys there, we were also acutely aware of the ammunition situation, and despite the press, it was never as bad as described, but, each man had to carry his own, so we were careful with what we used. We needed to isolate and control targets, and in the main to take them out using old fashioned infantry techniques.

Afghanistan was different, IED allied to guerilla tactics, but with close air support, mainly Apace attack helicopters enabled us to hit isolated and identified targets with huge controlled firepower, I remember giving my radioman a fire order for the choppers to take out a wall, the response was 'hope you did mean that wall' the chopper had turned it to dust!

[Ernesto75]

Originally Posted by rupertramjet

I am a British officer, we have to be very accurate with our fire orders, if we are inaccurate, we will not have enough to do the job!

Right, I am sorry if I had hurt your professional feelings, that was not my intention.

You mentionned the Falklands.
I remember it.
It seems the British army did very well there.

I am surprised we hear not much about the IEDs.
I suppose the British and the French are similarly concerned by these things in their respective theatres of operations.

[rupertramjet]

IEDs Improvised Explosive Devices, are basically home made bombs or booby traps, quite often linked in a series, they are hidden almost anywhere and are aimed at killing or maiming foot soldiers and vehicles, those aimed at foot soldiers are often contaminated with human or animal excrement or other substance designed to cause infection as well as serious injury.

Injury might seem an odd desire, killing surely is more effective, but by seriously injuring a soldier, it causes disruption of the patrol, men are needed to evacuate and deal with the injured man, thus having the effect of calling more soldiers into the killing zone, and possibly even giving the chance to take out the casevac helicopter.

We have two groups of men, and in the case of the disposal folk, now women, who are our heroes, firstly the searchers, who go and look for the bloody things and secondly the Explosives Ordnance Disposal people who actually make them safe, a kind of cold blooded courage I could not even dream about! My last trip outside an HQ building was in Afghanistan, for which I received a severe telling off, it was a strange sight to see young soldiers with tourniquets ready, just in case, so they are a very serious and real threat.

[Ennath]

May 6, 1860
Paiute War

Early settlement of northwest Nevada had a disruptive effect on the Northern Paiute people. Indians partly adapted by trading their finely woven baskets and deer and rabbit skins for food and goods. Other times settlers gave them food or blankets while some took jobs farming for the settlers. Nonetheless they resented the encroachment. Chief Numaga traveled to Virginia City and aired their grievances. Herders had driven cattle all over Paiute grazing land, threatening violence if Numaga did not return cattle they claimed as missing. Moreover cattlemen claimed that the Indians were extorting 2 cattle a week from them.

By 1858 the Indians and Whites agreed to a treaty with the principle of equal justice. Thieves and killers, white or Indian, were to be turned over to the authorities. Thereafter the Paiutes under Numaga fought alongside the whites against raiding parties of the Pit River Indians from across the Sierra Nevada. For the next 2 years there was relative peace. However the winter of 1858 was especially harsh making it impossible to get provisions or people over the Sierra Nevada. Food became scarce, forcing residents to hunt for wild game. With the arrival of spring 1859, what would be known as the Comstock Lode was made public and sparked a rush of silver prospectors to the area. With the influx of so many people many Indians believed that an evil spirit had been angered and as a consequence was sending storms that were freezing and starving them. The Carson City Territorial Enterprise reported in December 1859 that whites were doing all they could to alleviate the Indians’ starving, offering them bread and provisions. However the Indians refused to eat, fearing that the food was poisoned.

On January 13, 1860, Dexter Demming was murdered and his home raided. Territorial Governor Isaac Roop sent Captain Weatherlow to ascertain whether Paiute or Pit River Indians were responsible. After catching up with the raiding party it was ascertained that the raiders were part of the Smoke Creek Sam (Chief Saaba) band of Paiutes, which had broken off from Numaga. Whites began to demand revenge. The governor directed Weatherlow and Thomas Harvey to meet Numaga at Pyramid Lake and ask him about the murders and to honor the treaty and turn over the killers. The Chief refused to admit or deny that his people had killed Dexter Demming. Weatherlow pressed the Chief to follow the treaty, and Numaga finally stated he would not intervene if his people committed depredations, would refuse to come back to the City, and aware of the recent silver discoveries, demanded $16,000 for the grazing land. Weatherlow warned that all out war was inevitable. The local population, though, began to doubt the Paiutes were really to blame, because although Demming had been killed, it became known that his brother had once killed an Indian, and persons seeking revenge might have mistaken the two. However on February 12, Governor Roop wrote to the commander of the Department of the Pacific, asking for men and arms to drive the Paiutes from their strongholds.

During March and April, the Indians gathered at Pyramid Lake, to determine whether to drive the whites out. While a majority of the men voted for war, without a unanimous decision they were forced to postpone their plans; Chief Numaga had voted against war. On the other hand Chief Winnemucca greatly disliked Numaga, since Numaga spoke English, so the whites looked to Numaga and not Winnemucca as the leader of the Paiute. As Numaga debated whether to go to war, two Paiute children went missing and what would be known as the Williams Station massacre unfolded into war.

Williams Station was a combination saloon, general store and stagecoach station on the Carson River. On May 6 it was raided by Paiutes while its owner was away. There are conflicting versions as to why a war party killed all the white men and burned the station. Paiutes interviewed in 1880 stated that the white men had ripped off a young Indian in a deal for his pony for a bad gun and had captured 2 Paiute children. In the argument to back out of the deal the white's dog bit the boy and the men laughed. The young Indian then reported to the tribe that he heard two missing Paiute children in their root cellar.

When Williams returned on May 8 he found his two brothers' bodies mutilated, as well as all the patrons of the saloon murdered. Williams discovered that two nearby families of white settlers were also dead (13 people). Later, bodies of several parties of unarmed prospectors were also found to have been murdered. Passions were aroused, as stories escalated to include tales of 500 Indians who killed every person in the vicinity of Williams Station, including Pony Express Stations. A militia was quickly formed from Virginia City, Silver City, Carson City and Genoa, to apprehend the marauders. This force consisted of about 105 men and William Ormsby, a man reported as quick to jump to conclusions; he tried to be the de facto leader of the whole group, but ultimately there was no overall leader.

The Carson City Rangers arrived first at the ruins of Williams Station, stopping to rest and wait for other groups. All the men met at the Station to bury the dead and stay the night. Judge John Cradlebaugh in the Carson City Rangers noted that he only wanted to protect threatened settlements. He advised his men that the William brothers had a bad reputation for shady dealings with both whites and Indians, and that the Indians probably had a good reason for their attack. Come morning he, his men, and a few others from the other groups, returned to Carson City. The remaining men proceeded north to the Truckee River, and then along the river towards Pyramid Lake. They noticed that the path left by the Indians to follow was too obvious. The whites were poorly armed, badly mounted, and almost completely unorganized.

On May 12 the militia encountered a small party of Paiutes about 5 miles south of the lake and attacked. The Indians fled after returning a few shots, continuing to fire sporadically as they fled into the ravine with the whites in pursuit. Once in the ravine a large group of Indians appeared, closing the escape route and firing from all sides. The survivors escaped into a patch of woods; they were pursued for some 20 miles. 76 whites were dead, including Ormsby; and many of the others were wounded. Indians interviewed in 1880 reported the whites panicked when the assault began and they threw down their guns and surrendered and were killed There were 3 Indian casualties.

In response, settlers called upon legendary Texas Ranger Col. John Hays, who organized a force of local volunteers dubbed the Washoe Regiment. It was composed of 13 companies from the areas surrounding Carson City, Virginia City, Nevada City, CA, and Sacramento, CA. In addition, the US Army responded by sending a detachment of artillery and infantry from Fort Alcatraz. This contingent, known as the Carson River Expedition, was led by Captain Joseph Stewart. Hays' volunteers clashed with Indians at Williams Station, killing 6, and were then joined by Stewart's regulars. There were 544 volunteers and 207 regulars, with Hays in overall command. They returned to Pyramid Lake, where 300 Paiute warriors were camped.

On June 2 Hays sent out an advance party of 2 companies while the main force moved 8 miles downriver more cautiously than Ormsby had. The Indians attacked in force and the advance party beat a hasty retreat. Hays made his stand at a narrow canyon, about a mile wide. A rocky butte lay in the center of the field. To the west of this butte, rain had cut lateral gullies into the sandy ground providing natural breastworks which either side could have used to make successive stands in the case he was forced to retreat.

The Paiute charge had taken possession of the butte and now extended their own line from the river well into the rocks of the mountains to the west. They had advanced so quickly that all advantageous features were now in their hands. The soldiers were forced to deploy on level ground to the south. Captain Stewart deployed his Regulars in a skirmish line to the west of the butte along the base of the mountains while the volunteers formed to the east along the river. Captain Edward Farris Storey and Captain J. B. Van Hagan, commanding volunteers from Virginia City and California respectively, decided to make a charge against the butte even before Hays got the entire main force in place. They succeeded in seizing the butte and for a short time were subjected to flanking fire as the Natives began to surround them from the river bank and mountain slopes. This forward position was relieved as Hays advanced the main body forward. Stewart drove the warriors from the mountain slopes while Hays and the volunteers steadily advanced along the river. Eventually the two sides maintained a continuous line of battle opposing each other roughly a mile long. After fighting for nearly 3 hours the Paiutes finally retreated up the canyon toward the lake. Next day, Stewart took up pursuit, coming upon the abandoned village at the mouth of the Truckee River. The whites had lost 4 dead. Paiute losses are not known as the Indians carried off their dead. However over 70 bodies were later discovered in a nearby canyon.

After the 2nd Battle of Pyramid Lake, the federal forces built a small fort to deny that area to the Paiutes. Small skirmishes and raids continued until August, when an informal cease-fire was achieved. In 1861 the fort at Pyramid Lake was abandoned in favor of Fort Churchill, further south on the Carson River. The war is of particular note because of its effect on the famed Pony Express. Several stations were ambushed and the service experienced its only delays in delivery.

[Ernesto75]

Originally Posted by rupertramjet

IEDs Improvised Explosive Devices, are basically home made bombs or booby traps, quite often linked in a series, they are hidden almost anywhere and are aimed at killing or maiming foot soldiers and vehicles, those aimed at foot soldiers are often contaminated with human or animal excrement or other substance designed to cause infection as well as serious injury.

At the time of the Algerian war, which was not called a war but Events of Algeria, it is the first time I heard of IED.

But not to worry the populations the newspapers said very little (probably the result of a censure).

Later, when I began my military instruction I learnt that the first to use this sort of thing were the Germans after 1944 (their indetectable mines made of wood especially).

The IEDs covered with excrements you allude to were used first by the Viet-Congs, I think.

It seems this became current later.

We could call it the arm of the poors.

[Ernesto75]

Originally Posted by rupertramjet

We have two groups of men, and in the case of the disposal folk, now women, who are our heroes, firstly the searchers, who go and look for the bloody things and secondly the Explosives Ordnance Disposal people who actually make them safe, a kind of cold blooded courage I could not even dream about! My last trip outside an HQ building was in Afghanistan, for which I received a severe telling off, it was a strange sight to see young soldiers with tourniquets ready, just in case, so they are a very serious and real threat.

I know the French Army is experimenting a unit with dogs.
These animals are wonderfull and their masters have a special relationship with them.
They are unknown heroes.

[rupertramjet]

Originally Posted by Ernesto75

I know the French Army is experimenting a unit with dogs.
These animals are wonderful and their masters have a special relationship with them.
They are unknown heroes.

We have been using dogs for quite some years, as have the Americans, I know other armies do to, The French Police and Gendamerie also use dogs for explosive and drug work, as you say unsung heroes. As do many Police forces worldwide!

Close relationships are common, this one was beautiful, the ashes were buried with the coffin,
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ken-heart.html

[Ernesto75]

Originally Posted by rupertramjet

We have been using dogs for quite some years, as have the Americans, I know other armies do to, The French Police and Gendamerie also use dogs for explosive and drug work, as you say unsung heroes. As do many Police forces worldwide!

Close relationships are common, this one was beautiful, the ashes were buried with the coffin,
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ken-heart.html

Yes, very touching.