EU Referendum 23rd June

[laberbacke]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

On the one hand there is the letter of the law. On the other hand there is political reality. If you hold a referendum on membership of the EU and the Leave side wins, you ignore and slight the Leave vote at your peril. You will not do that and nothing happens. It is at the best a spring for widespread civil disobedience - and that is the best case scenario.

From a perspective of Realpolitik, it would be political suicide to "Just forget" about Brexit and it doesn't matter if the prime minister is Theresa May, Boris Johnson or Jeremy Corbin after another election. That's a matter of path dependancy, more than two years after the Brexit vote.

Cameron and Johnson set the country on this path and the country now must follow the path to its end and deal with the consequences. The UK can't have its cake and eat it, too, in that regard the hard Brexiteers are at least more honest than the current prime minister, who still promises to retain all the advantages of EU membership with none of its drawbacks. Becoming another Norway is not what Brexit supporters voted for two years ago.

[vinceprince]

Originally Posted by laberbacke

From a perspective of Realpolitik, it would be political suicide to "Just forget" about Brexit and it doesn't matter if the prime minister is Theresa May, Boris Johnson or Jeremy Corbin after another election. That's a matter of path dependancy, more than two years after the Brexit vote.

It's not political suicide due to our FPTP system which makes it basically a choice between a Tory or Labour Gov't- both soft Brexit. They'll just say 'it's us or Corbyn and even softer Brexit is that what you want?'

[laberbacke]

Originally Posted by vinceprince

It's not political suicide due to our FPTP system which makes it basically a choice between a Tory or Labour Gov't- both soft Brexit. They'll just say 'it's us or Corbyn and even softer Brexit is that what you want?'

A soft Brexit won't be agreed upon with the EU without breaking a core Brexit promise - regaining full sovereignty over immigration. British leaders were either intentionally lying in that regard, or woefully overestimating the strength of their negotiating position with the EU, for whom it is a matter of survival to hold fast to its "four freedoms".



More than two years after the vote, the UK still has no clear negotiating position regarding precisely what kind of Brexit it wants. The world's oldest parliament, faced with the gravest decision of each MP's career, still has no idea what it's doing.

[vinceprince]

Originally Posted by laberbacke

A soft Brexit won't be agreed upon with the EU without breaking a core Brexit promise - regaining full sovereignty over immigration. British leaders were either intentionally lying in that regard, or woefully overestimating the strength of their negotiating position with the EU, for whom it is a matter of survival to hold fast to its "four freedoms".



More than two years after the vote, the UK still has no clear negotiating position regarding precisely what kind of Brexit it wants. The world's oldest parliament, faced with the gravest decision of each MP's career, still has no idea what it's doing.

My question though is to (hard) leavers is:
What are you or can you actually do about it apart from moaning on internet forums?

Who are you going to vote for? As I said the Tory line is - any vote not for us just let's in Corbyn - and they're right about this under our FPTP system.

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by vinceprince

My question though is to (hard) leavers is:
What are you or can you actually do about it apart from moaning on internet forums?

Who are you going to vote for? As I said the Tory line is - any vote not for us just let's in Corbyn - and they're right about this under our FPTP system.

I voted to leave, the mechanics of how it actually works are to be drawn up by Parliament, and I am happy to let them get on with that, the highest percentage of moaning by far is coming from remainers who want the vote cancelled.
Let's be honest the UK did have an exit strategy, it could not be fleshed out in detail prior to the vote because of the vagueness of Article 50.
They wanted to negotiate a sort of favoured nation deal but at every point the EU has played hardball and rejected each compromise, the EU want the UK to continue to pay for many years to come, and I have never argued against that, however if we are to continue to pay we must receive some benefits.
Yes a negotiated deal is better for all but if no deal is struck prior to the deadline then let us leave and trade on WTO terms, any payments to the EU can be massively reduced accordingly.
I have every confidence the UK will survive outside the EU, there may need to be many changes but who is to say they will not be for the better.

As for all the posts about the 2016 referendum not being binding, I take it you will accept then that the 1975 result has also never been binding, or is it only non binding if we vote against your preferred choice.

[G-Type]

I am meanwhile losing the overview who responds to which post.

Is it Wendigo who responds to Vince or to laberbacke respectively. As for the latter, I think that he/she is from Non-UK origin...just judging from the name which is a German expression.

Anyway, I just notice that the tone of the "Brexiteers" is getting more and more nervous and thin-coated...one of the reasons I (for my part) have not been participating in the discussion throughout the last weeks.

Please, don´t use the argument of an always existing sound strategy on how to get the best out of a deal. If you had one, you would not panically repeat that the vote for the Brexit was a binding one...of course it was and it has to be respected.

The problem is that your actual government is lead by a PM who is a remainer at heart. Future will tell if she succeeds to get her cabinet behind her plans for a "softer" Brexit. Frankly speaking, I have my doubts.

On the other hand (and this comes from a person who would have voted to remain), the more I hear and the more I read -especially here-, the more I do come to the conclusion that it might be best to fulfill the binding vote from your people and your government to regain the "full sovereignity" of your country.

Each and every move towards a softer exit does nothing but undermine what you (The Brexiteers) want.

I am absolutely confident that you could do well without any linkage to the EU, as well as the EU could do without the UK.

Each and every day, you underline your core principles and the necessity to regain your independence.

This - in its plain simplicity - will only work with a Hard Brexit.

Both sides will need to deal with the consequences then - I am fully convinced: both sides can.
.

[seany65]

Originally Posted by vinceprince

My question though is to (hard) leavers is:
What are you or can you actually do about it apart from moaning on internet forums?

Who are you going to vote for? As I said the Tory line is - any vote not for us just let's in Corbyn - and they're right about this under our FPTP system.

If you mean what can hard Brexiteers do about getting a hard brexit, then the answer: Absolutely bog all.

The only thing that hard Brexiteers can do if there's an election before we actually leave, in order to at least try to make sure we actually leave and not just change our deal so that in truth we're still in the EU while saying we've left, then the answer is: Feel sick to the stomach while voting for the tories and putting the X in the box with our non-writing hand so that we can chop it off afterwards and still be able to write.-but only if the tories campaign on leaving the EU, with the view that the tories can be voted out IF the other parties don't campaign on taking us back in.

[scoundrel]

If the decision to Leave the EU is openly sabotaged, I would predict a division of the British people which will last for generations. How this will express itself in actions I cannot foretell, but I can foretell that the Leave voters will not file the open contempt for their vote under "no action taken"; though they may bide their time, because revenge is a dish best eaten cold. Oil refinery blockades are so "last year" but other mischief making options will be available.

Much more serious, people will disengage from the democratic process much more than they already have. Even if you are a Remainer, you will not fail to observe that the elected tribunes of the people are not serving their voters, but rather are serving others and working against their voters. That is actually a dangerous thing; these are the stagnant waters in which mosquito swarms such as fascism and communism once hatched out. Society will much safer and more stable if we live in a representative democracy; but in a genuine representative democracy, parliamentarians respect a referendum vote decision, and we have seen that here in the UK the parliamentarians have not respected the referendum at all.

Mrs May has shown herself to be weak, She really really should have stood down or been forced out after the dreadful performance of her 2017 General Election. The Tories were most unwise to persevere with her. All this time has been wasted before they even confronted the Brexit plan issue, and in the chaotic welter of ministerial resignations we have seen the reason why this vital step was postponed so long. It is because Mrs May runs a minority government and can't manage if a sizable body of MPs on her own benches decide to take away their support. The General Election was supposed to strengthen Mrs May but she made such a hash of it that she weakened her own government instead; with results we are now seeing.

Be damned if I would endorse a referendum ever again on any issue.; a referendum does not settle the question. But a General Election would be a much more intelligent way to resolve the current dilemma. It should be fought on the Brexit ticket. Mrs May was so intoxicated with her over-confident reaction to opinion polls that she indulged in a Tory-Boy wet dream of cutting essential services, scrapping programs which benefit ordinary people, such as free school meals, wanting to bankrupt and disinherit families if their old folks succumb to dementia, and even [Jesus on a bike] wanting to bring back fox-hunting. This is a key reason why she should go; she can't uninvent herself, having been the person who wanted to do all this malignant shit. If she leads the Tories into a future election these issues will resurface. But if she doesn't call an election, the parliament which exists today will fail to pass anything except a non-Brexit Brexit such as the government's present proposal; and might not be able even to pass that.

[Nobody1]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

Mrs May has shown herself to be weak..

The EU will set a warning example with Britain. No negotiation or made concession will be able to prevent this, there is simply too much at stake for Brussels.

The British people have to be prepared for that.

[Marcsimus]

I honestly don't know how Brexit will affect me, in some respects I don't care. Two years after the vote and still nobody truly knows what is happening.......it just needs to be sorted.

Britain cannot afford to lose a company like Airbus, if they go, who else will follow?