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Model ID Request The place for all model ID requests, classic and modern day.
Note 1: 1 ID request per thread and maximum 3 new ID requests per member per day.


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Old 11-20-2016, 08:57 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by highwayman274 View Post
Looks like this is one of those Mayfair stage-name situations; she only posed for them, and only under that name, and perhaps only two or three times.

I am having trouble finding any sources to confirm the name, except for this entry at creamcheese

Does anyone recognize her from other sources?
You're looking for a second mag. that used that same name, as opposed to simply looking for Mayfair scans that show the Pam Murgatroyd spelling?

I fear you're pushing the hurdle too high. Yes, a model name that's repeated across more than one separate publishing stable is better than one that's repeated only within one stable is better than one that's repeated only within one title is better than one that's not repeated, or one that's "contradicted" by alternatives. But, since when was the threshold for a 2-part model name/id more than one mag. pictorial?

If we've got more than one pictorial great, although it may pose the problem of competing names, but is that really the minimum requirement?

Most of the model names in Mayfair are, or seem likely to be, professional handles; that is, they're made-up. Sometimes they're the same professional handles as the models/photogs./mags. used elsewhere, sometimes not. Yes, we all agree on that when we think about it like that but when we write:
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Originally Posted by highwayman274 View Post
one of those Mayfair stage-name situations
that implies something rather different. Often folk here speak of model ids as if they're "real". Is Sandra Scream real? No, just her best-known-as handle. A best-known-as professional handle is neither a "real" name nor "real" in any other kind of sense. It's just we slip into thinking it has some reality, some permanence or fixity through the very process of vef model thread institutionalisation, through preferring Harriet Wilkinson over Andrea Nadler, or vice versa for that matter.

Beware constructing castles in the clouds; beware such reification.

One of the traps of big-plan up-front software development is "better get it right first time", i.e. the cost of errors. That cost is a constructed/invented one. Taking that approach makes errors cost more, it raises the price early and forces development into risk-averse behaviour patterns that can easily become stuck, unproductive, and organisationally pathological.

MIR seems to want to get model ids right first time. Well, that would be nice but sometimes it's not going to happen so easily. We can defer the decision, leave content stuck in MIR for years. That way we avoid making a mistake... or do we?

An alternate approach is to be prepared to revisit; to accept a more iterative and incremental approach. The only thing worse than a second or third plan is often a first one.

I agree, Pam Murgatroyd is an "obviously" made-up name, one of those "excessively English" handles Mayfair seemed to enjoy applying to the models of continental photographers like (in this case) Jean Rougeron. We know Rougeron's work was published in many other mags. including, for example, frequently in Tuk (Ned). Just because we so far haven't found her content anywhere else than Mayfair and a photo. CD doesn't mean we can't and won't tomorrow. If and when that additional content comes along we can decide whether we want to revise her id/best-known-as handle, but for now the Mayfair name, no matter how "obviously fake" it might seem, is her best-known-as professional handle.

Here's a thought: is an "obviously" fake name any worse or better than another that's less-obviously but still either known or presumed to be fake name? How? Why?

What I'm suggesting is that MIR already has enough difficulty agonising over models with collections of contradictory names. There's no need to also agonise over models with sparse/scant content and just a single two-part name. Just be thankful it's two-part and get on with the next one.

Last edited by effCup; 11-20-2016 at 09:30 AM.. Reason: typo.
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Old 11-20-2016, 05:17 PM   #62
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You're looking for a second mag. that used that same name, as opposed to simply looking for Mayfair scans that show the Pam Murgatroyd spelling?
I guess I'm being a bit anal-retentive on this one . . . sorry about that. Just trying to complete my normal "due diligence", and wondering if maybe there was a reason for not marking it "solved" back in January 2015.

Consider this chain of events;

The Model ID Request we have under review was posted by sinope on 01-25-2015, 03:11 AM.

Will Bryce responded at 01-25-2015, 06:29 AM with the suggestion "Pam Murgatroyd, Mayfair 21.02I think."

sinope then created the Pam Murgatroyd thread on 01-26-2015, 04:28 PM

However, the VEF Mayfair thread provides no scans that connect the name "Pam Murgatroyd" to any images in Volume 21, Number 2. I suspect that this is the reason that the ID Request was never marked as "solved".

I have been searching for a pdf copy of the mag, so that I can match the name to the face. Thus far I have not found one, or even a copy of the related Table of Contents that mentions her by that name.

Can anyone point me in the right direction?
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Old 11-21-2016, 05:47 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by highwayman274 View Post
wondering if maybe there was a reason for not marking it "solved" back in January 2015.

the VEF Mayfair thread provides no scans that connect the name "Pam Murgatroyd" to any images in Volume 21, Number 2. I suspect that this is the reason that the ID Request was never marked as "solved".

Can anyone point me in the right direction?
Maybe, or else perhaps the reason it wasn't marked solved had little/nothing to do with the specifics of the request & info. turned up and more to do with other matters I don't think I'll need to go into here.

I have a scan of the toc page of that issue but it only says "Pam". I suppose we could start a mag. request, to see if anyone can give us full-page scans, in order to see the text & confirm. Office Boy's Mayfair mag. info. lists "Pam Murgatroyd" and he's pretty particular about info./spelling. /shrug/

This does, however, seem different from what you wrote before, which seemed like it was looking for a second/different mag. instance using that name rather than just the text of her name from a Mayfair scan. If we could have the other then great but I'd say the chances are pretty slim, at least under that same name.
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Old 12-02-2016, 03:51 PM   #64
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I went through this "What Is A Suitable Model ID?" and the Model Name Source Reliability?-thread, which are in my opinion inextricably linked with each other.

My focus is on films, so most of my thoughts are about the models, which appear in films.

1. For what purpose do we need a model-ID?

This is in my opinion the key question for the whole discussion.

Do we need an ID to get a chance to meet them or to find out something about their personal life? No!

From the POV of a single member, one only needs a name as a reference to find more of the models work here or outside of VEF.
From the POV of VEF we need a name to organize the forum, collect her work in a single thread and make the model searchable within VEF.

Keeping this in mind, every model-ID is suitable for me, even if it's invented or only a number, if the ID fulfill the conditions of searchability and organisation and opens the posibility to collect more of her stuff.

2. Model-ID in an ideal world


In an ideal world each model
a) is credited in all her appearances,
b) uses always the same name (no aliases),
c) uses a full (unique) name and
d) is listed in databases like iafd or egafd.


3. Model-ID in reality

We don't have an ideal world. Especially for lesser known models we fail on all these points 2.a) to 2.d).

Point 2.d) trumps always, even it is a xnk at egafd or a unknown at iafd. Because most times this led to other appearances. Also it fulfill the criteria of searchability. Even if there is a model listed only with a first name at egafd, because they are numbered like eg. Julia [2]. And you can search for her films, which are listed at iafd or egafd.

Where from originates the names at egfd or iafd? They take the credits, which are given at the cover or/and on-screen.
We can do the same, if a model isn't listed at egafd or iafd, but we get a credit from a film. If there is later a listing at egafd/iafd with another name, we can change the listing in the forum.

If there is no credit on cover or on screen, but we have names given at retailer-sites or at the websites of the studio, I would use them also. E.g. this requested girl could be listed as Samantha@Handjobhelpers.

If the model has/had her own site, a modelpage, a twitter account or is/was on a amateur-site like mydirtyhobby, we can use the name given there.

I would even use a name for which is no source available, if it is a name, which is widely spread in the web. E.g. mystery girl as Gom Kogaru or this mystery model. The latter model isn't listed anywhere, there is no source for the name Greta Guugili, but if you search the web with this name, you have thousands of hits with content of her. I'm pretty sure, that even in ten years, no reliable source for an ID of her can be found. So why not take what is spread in the web?

In lots of this cases we will never get a proper ID, which means a credit at a cover, a website, a db-listing, but enough stuff to collect in a thread. This is a problem especially with all the new amateur-stuff.


4. Is there a difference in the question of calling a request as solved and titling a thread?

Not really. If you have a model, which appears with many various names and you don't have a database ID of egafd or iafd, after some time this request could be solved with accepting the various names and moving the request-thread to the model thread, which is way more frequented, so there probably show up some more stuff.
But if the model is sitting for years in the mystery corner, the chance, that new stuff shows up is not so big in my opinion.
For the title in the model thread one can use the various names with maybe an addition, where it originates from, e.g. Greta Guugili@web; or Samantha@Handjobhelpers.

Last edited by deezer; 12-02-2016 at 04:03 PM..
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