Current or modern politics in the United States

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by bowlinggreen

^ But according to xyzde69, we have. All the potential sellers turn their saleable goods in to the central government. After siphoning off all the good stuff for themselves, the government redistributes the remnants to the other potential buyers. If the sellers complain, they get shot or sent to the gulag.

Wrong. There is no government in Anarchism.

Do you know the economic precept of Anarchism ?

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

Wrong. There is no government in Anarchism.

Do you know the economic precept of Anarchism ?

Again with the fantasies-- governments that you imagine might happen-- but don't actually work anywhere, ever. Notice that the only time we use the word "anarchy" is in a phrase like "Somalia collapsed into anarchy"

At the end of the 19th century, the US had some anarchist movements.

And today we probably have the most widespread anarchist movement in a first world nation -- the "sovereign citizen" movement.

You might read up on it . . . its a pretty malignant fantasy, in practice. Quite recently, we had an armed group of anarchists seize Federal land in southern Oregon, the Malheur Wildlife Refuge. Though there were a variety of motivations, these folks are essentially anarchists. They're not seeking to create some other government-- they want no government at all. Some of them were camped out in Portland, by the Federal Courthouse where they were on trial in the fall of 2016 . . . brought their guns and their horses.

So yeah, there are some "real anarchists" in the US today, and they're really nuts.

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

Again with the fantasies-- governments that you imagine might happen-- [...]

So yeah, there are some "real anarchists" in the US today, and they're really nuts.

The problem is that there are many kinds of Anarchism, like there are many kind of Communism or democracies.

If you read Marx Stirner's book: "The Ego and His Own". He defended the notion of individualist Anarchism.
Several philosophers think that Nietzsche is a moderate nihilist compared to Stirner.

But there are other forms of Anarchism, as example Social Anarchism, defended by a famous American MIT Professor called Noam Chomsky, that was developped by thinkers like Bakunin or Kropotkin (both who were noble Russians disgusted by the privileges of the elites on the working class)

Buddhists are considered as Anarchists too. Listen to theories of the Dalai Lama and just tell me where you will find hate or something vicious?
All his theories are based on human collaboration and ascetism.

That's all what liberal Western capitalists (as Trump, Bush Jr, Kennedy, Reagan) and facists have fought against during decades. (Western Capitalist leaders often were very fond about fascist doctrines and leaders)

Now... humanity rotten by this vicious ideology will break its neck against the physical borders of a finite world, because of the Western Capitalist greed.

Open your eyes my friend. Instead to read economic books or questionable gossips about "Communism" (in fact State Capitalist societies), read books about ecology and its challenges. Go to your nearest university and ask questions about ecology.
I'm sure that you will meet Professors who will glad to inform you very well.

[SanteeFats]

True anarchy will never exist IMO. There will always be one or more "Putin" types that will gather supporters and at the very least rule over an area. Then comes the clash of those who rule in other areas and inevitably a consolidation of areas into a polity. Then the procession begins up the types of government tree.
Remember history repeats itself.

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

The problem is that there are many kinds of Anarchism, like there are many kind of Communism or democracies.

{snip}

Open your eyes my friend. Instead to read economic books or questionable gossips about "Communism" (in fact State Capitalist societies), read books about ecology and its challenges. Go to your nearest university and ask questions about ecology.
I'm sure that you will meet Professors who will glad to inform you very well.

My eyes are more than opened, and my graduate education long past.

I would have no argument with you about the ecological challenges that humanity faces.

Our dispute stems from your attachment to proven failures -- anarchism and Marxism -- as some kind of solution. One can agree that cancer is a bad disease and still note that homeopathy isn't any kind of cure. There is no "right kind of communism" anymore than there's a "right kind of homeopathy" . . . all communist governance falls on Robespierre's command -- Il faut une volonté une -- "we need a single will".

You persist in the notion that there are "many kinds of anarchism/communism" -- and that someone, somewhere is going to "get it right" -- when they never have.

We've had a century of Marxism in practice in the world's largest and most populous nations. Russians and Chinese were really sincere about Marx. If you want to talk about academic study, they read, they wrote endless volumes about Marx and his application to the problems of economics. They weren't at all insincere.

Again to keep this thread about US politics -- discussions of Marx belong on the Marxism/Communist thread, I think -- we in the US have more anarchist movements, and more sympathy for it at the highest levels, than any other first world country.

On the more militant side, we have the "Sovereign Citizens" -- they don't accept that the government has a right to exist. They number in the hundreds of thousands. They emerge from the Posse Committatus movement in the early 1970s.

Originally Posted by Judge calls Oregon refuge occupier Jake Ryan's 'sovereign citizen' stance 'legal gibberish'

Jake Ryan, one of the youngest defendants prosecuted in the armed takeover of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in 2016, might have gotten probation for digging two trenches on sacred Native American ground at the bird sanctuary.

He had no past criminal record, not even a traffic citation. He had tremendous support in his hometown of Plains, Montana. He had no violations while he was out of jail awaiting his fate.

But all those factors that may have helped reduce his sentence went out the window Wednesday as Ryan went before U.S. District Judge Anna J. Brown, suddenly demanding to represent himself.

He recited a prepared sovereign citizen script three times. It was reminiscent of fellow occupier Ryan Bundy's past filings and remarks in court.

Ryan dismissed the United States as a "foreign entity'' and said he'd like to "live the rest of my life in peace and move on.''

"I'm su juris. I'm a man capable of handling my own affairs'' who refuses to recognize a "fictitious entity created by the government,'' he read from his handwritten notes on a white-lined paper. "I'm not a person. I'm a living soul. I'm a man. ... I do not wish to have an attorney assume my identity.''

The judge dismissed Ryan's remarks as "legal jibberish'' and "legal nonsense,'' denying his request to represent himself. She allowed his defense lawyer Jesse Merrithew to argue on his behalf while also letting Ryan speak.

Its worth noting that the particular incident that this group of anarchists is on trial for-- is seizing one of the largest wildlife refuges on the West coast of North America, a key nesting site on the Pacific flyway, which they held that have the right to farm and graze-- destroying its as a bird sanctuary.

So there you have "anarchists in action" -- acting to seize and destroy environmentally important public lands. Hard to see how that's a good solution to anything.

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

So there you have "anarchists in action" -- acting to seize and destroy environmentally important public lands. Hard to see how that's a good solution to anything.

If nobody will push me to reply on this thema (as Bowlingreen was speaking at my place), that will be my last intervention about this subject here.
Not anarchists in action, but idiots in action.
As Social Anarchist thinkers observe(d), laws and treaties often are transgressed by governments for economic reasons.
How many times local people had to accept by Federal decree, things that have damaged their life.
It’s the case today in my area, where the Federal court has given the right to a PRIVATE enterprise to cross a valley with high voltage pylons in the way to sell electricity to Italy after 20 years of “legal” fights.
Isn’t it the same story with the Dakota Access Pipeline ?
Another example, why American soldiers had to die in the Middle East, because of a stupid President thought that there were demons quoted in the Bible who were in action on Earth ?

I’ll develop the rest of my argumentation about several forms of Communism in the related topic. (As example, Étienne Cabet, theorist of Christian communism. Rosa Luxembourg, who developed the concept of Communist Democracy called today the “Luxemburgism”.)

Originally Posted by xyzde69

Wrong. There is no government in Anarchism.
Do you know the economic precept of Anarchism ?

So Bowlingreen, I’ll give you the answer.

De chacun selon ses moyens, à chacun selon ses besoins.

From each according to his means, to each according to his needs.

[Nobody1]

Originally Posted by SanteeFats

True anarchy will never exist IMO.

Just wait until the next financial crisis hits the fan. Then come and see.

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

If nobody will push me to reply on this thema (as Bowlingreen was speaking at my place), that will be my last intervention about this subject here.
Not anarchists in action, but idiots in action.
As Social Anarchist thinkers observe(d), laws and treaties often are transgressed by governments for economic reasons.
How many times local people had to accept by Federal decree, things that have damaged their life.
It’s the case today in my area, where the Federal court has given the right to a PRIVATE enterprise to cross a valley with high voltage pylons in the way to sell electricity to Italy after 20 years of “legal” fights.

Sounds like a Sovereign Citizen talking. Those "idiots in action" would agree with you %100 -- and they add to that the willingness to take direct action.

So join up. Your political home is the American Mountain West-- the Bundy Militia. These are anarchists devoted to confronting a government they think is illegitimate, your real world anarchists in action:

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

Sounds like a Sovereign Citizen talking. Those "idiots in action" would agree with you %100 -- and they add to that the willingness to take direct action.

So join up. Your political home is the American Mountain West-- the Bundy Militia. These are anarchists devoted to confronting a government they think is illegitimate, your real world anarchists in action:

They have nothing to do with me. They are afraid.

The following picture correspond more of my Anarchist style. I've few fears and not afraid to die.

[Rogerbh]

Sovereign citizens - you don't see this type of crap in Russia or China. Doubt they remain outside a cell for very long in those countries.

And aren't we living in at least minor anarchy now? Every morning we wake up to see what the toddler in charge has tweeted and anarchy reigns.

Quite tiresome.