Tanks!!

[palo5]

Originally Posted by deefer

...Kremlin armour being a perfect example...

What's Kremlin armor?

[Trintron]

Originally Posted by deefer

Mind you as a Brit the way were going we'll have 6 land rovers, 2 challengers and JCB left at the end of these cutbacks.

It's a shame, I have been reading up about the events leading up to the Falklands War, the current rounds of in the UK cuts remind me of the events surrounding the lead up to the Falklands conflict back then. At the time the Conservative Government in the UK wanted to make drastic cuts to the military as well, then came the Falklands War. I wonder if the Conservatives Government in the UK has learned anything from those past events, all of these cuts will affect a nation's ability to defend it's own interests.

On to a different topic...

The US Army has prefered to focus on tracked vehicles, which is a shame; with more and more conflicts taking place in urban environments and combatants increasingly being organized like the Bosnian Serb, Iraqi and Somali Militias, i.e. infantry with automatic weapons supported by heavy weapons mounted on wheeled vehicles, the use of wheeled weapon systems will be more important.

[BigBucket]

Originally Posted by Trintron

The US Army has prefered to focus on tracked vehicles, which is a shame; with more and more conflicts taking place in urban environments and combatants increasingly being organized like the Bosnian Serb, Iraqi and Somali Militias, i.e. infantry with automatic weapons supported by heavy weapons mounted on wheeled vehicles, the use of wheeled weapon systems will be more important.

Agreed the awesome Tigers and Panthers of the German army in WW2 were open country tanks but they were bogged down when it got into town fighting. The cheaper more manoverable tanks could out manoever the big German armour and kill their vulnerable spots. The Soviet t34 and the US Hellcat Tank destroyers could race around the rear areas and attack the Germans from the rear both types scored many kills this way.

[Rendell]

Originally Posted by BigBucket

Agreed the awesome Tigers and Panthers of the German army in WW2 were open country tanks but they were bogged down when it got into town fighting. The cheaper more manoverable tanks could out manoever the big German armour and kill their vulnerable spots. The Soviet t34 and the US Hellcat Tank destroyers could race around the rear areas and attack the Germans from the rear both types scored many kills this way.

It's possible that this is one of the reasons why the German's created up-gunned armoured cars like the sdkfz 234 "Puma". The Puma was one of the heaviest armoured cars of the war in terms of armour and armament but still retained good performance on and off road. The turret on the puma actually came from the proposed VK1602 Leopard light tank and mounted a long barrelled 50mm gun. Later versions did away with the turret and added a 75mm PAK 40 anti tank gun instead.

[Zidon]

only question with light wheeled armor is how it stands up to an old RPG, let alone the more advanced stuff.
cause nowadays, any willing 15 year old can easily be force-fed an RPG.

so if the captivating WW2 aircraft resemble birds & marine mammals (which is part of their charm), what animal does a tank resemble? I haven't a clue..

[deefer]

Originally Posted by Zidon

only question with light wheeled armor is how it stands up to an old RPG, let alone the more advanced stuff.
cause nowadays, any willing 15 year old can easily be force-fed an RPG.

so if the captivating WW2 aircraft resemble birds & marine mammals (which is part of their charm), what animal does a tank resemble? I haven't a clue..

The answer to the above is also the answer to whats Kremlin armour. Invented by Royal Engineers during the troubles in ulster during the 60's and 70's as the provo's had started to use rpg7's in large numbers and were easily able to destroy the thin armour on things like the Humber pigs and Saracens. Kremlin Armour as it became known was a simple system of steel re-bar frames carried on the hulls of afv's designed to either detonate a warhead far enough away from the hull to negate the effect of shaped charge weapons or believe it or not trap the weapon in the frame. This type of armour fell out of fashion as tanks gained heavier and more sophisticated armour, Chobham Winchester et al, but returned to use on wheeled vehicles during Afghanistan and Iraq to counter the huge number of Russian supplied light AT rockets, the new system is now known as bar armour as the Americans invented it but still get they're s from Britains.



both of these are kremlin armoured humber pigs withe the armour frames just visible on the main body



this is an m113 of the us army showing its modern bar armour

Also the weapons like the old rpg 7 are rather old now and whilst still cheap easy to use and plentiful and more importantly re loadable they have been superseded by newer disposable weapons of far greater capacity

hope this answers the questions

[deefer]

Originally Posted by BigBucket

Agreed the awesome Tigers and Panthers of the German army in WW2 were open country tanks but they were bogged down when it got into town fighting. The cheaper more manoverable tanks could out manoever the big German armour and kill their vulnerable spots. The Soviet t34 and the US Hellcat Tank destroyers could race around the rear areas and attack the Germans from the rear both types scored many kills this way.

This is where Heinz Gudderian's Achtung Panzer comes in, you use tanks to take open ground with infantry in support but infantry to take urban areas with armoured support. But for anyone interested Achtung Panzer has just been translated for the first time from technical German to English and shows why most of Europe fell so easily to relativity limited German power.

[BustyWomenLovr]

I've always liked the JagdPanther, The Hetzer and the S-103 aka "S Tank"
Esp the first two in "ambush" paint and the latter in Swedish splinter camo.
Mind, this is purely from looks, for usefulness I may go elsewhere.

[Trintron]

Originally Posted by deefer

This is where Heinz Gudderian's Achtung Panzer comes in, you use tanks to take open ground with infantry in support but infantry to take urban areas with armoured support. But for anyone interested Achtung Panzer has just been translated for the first time from technical German to English and shows why most of Europe fell so easily to relativity limited German power.

The thing that facinates me is that many of the European powers at the time just totally ignored the these ideas; each of the armies that the Germans defeated in the early years of the war had probonents of these very principles but no one listed to them; it was only the German army that listened to Guderian. It was the funny thing is that it was the British during the First World War who put these very principles into practice with the first combined arms assault, the even stranger fact is that the Germans at the time did not have a answer for the combined arms assault.

[Historian]

Originally Posted by deefer

none as ungainly as the french panhard ebr heavy amoured car

Some more French armour that I remember from my teenage modelmaking days:

Renault FT (often known as the FT-17). The little FT is a very significant vehicle in the history of the tank- Introduced late in WW1, it was the first tank to enter service with the main armament (either a 7.92mm MG, or a short-barrelled 37mm gun) in a rotating turret on top of the hull, and employed the classic 'driver at the front, engine at the back and gun turret on top' layout that most tank design would subsequently follow.

The FT was widely exported as the first tank used by many armies across the world, ranging from Switzerland to Afghanistan and Japan. It became the starting point for both American and Russian tank forces- the Americans used it in France when they entered WW1 (Patton commanded units of FTs during 1918), going on to build about 1000 under licence as the '6-Ton Tank M1917', and the first Soviet tank production was a small number of FT copies, based on damaged examples captured during the Revolution.

Remarkably, this WW1 relic also saw action in WW2, the French still having considerable numbers in service in 1940. Poland and Yugoslavia were also still employing the FT when they were invaded.
Captured examples were widely used by the Germans for tasks like airfield defence, policing, or as static MG emplacements. The Italians also built an FT copy, the Fiat 3000, which was still in service as late as 1943.



Char B1 & B1-bis: Armed with a combination of a hull-mounted 75mm howitzer, and a 47mm gun in the turret, the B1 was conceived for the specific role of breaking through ememy lines, crossing trenches destroying fortifications, enemy tanks and other obstructions as it went, and to provide close support for infantry.

First conceived in the early 1920's, it was the product of a very drawn-out and protracted development process involving the competitive commissioning of prototype designs from four different manufacturers, the best features of which were then to be combined into a single specification. As a result, a project which began in 1921 wouldn't reach the stage of the first production orders being placed until 1934(!), finally entering service in 1936, by which time it was already obselete in many respects.

The B1 had many faults- it was technically complex, very expensive to build, slow and heavy on fuel. In addition, the French preference for a single-man turret meant that a the commander of a B1 had a very busy life- He was responsible for not only commanding his tank and crew, and finding targets for the 75mm gun (which being hull-mounted, had very little traverse, aiming largely being done by steering the whole vehicle), but also had to load, aim and fire the turret gun (and a co-axial MG!) single-handed.... The unit commander, of course had to do this as well as commanding the rest of the tanks in his unit...
(Despite having a 4-man crew, multi-tasking seems to have been a way of life for Char B1 crews, the driver also being responsible for firing the hull gun- the remaining crew members being a loader for the 75mm and a wireless operator. Apparently it wasn't unknown in the field for a 5th man to be carried to assist in loading the two guns...)

On the other hand, it was heavily armoured, and the 75mm + 47mm gun combination gave it the capability to do serious damage to most German tanks used in the early stages of the war- On 16 May 1940, during intense fighting for the village of Stonne (Stonne changed hands no less than 17 times in two days!), a single B1 commanded by Pierre Bilotte pushed through the German front line into the town, and caused mayhem:

"Capt. Billotte's Char B1 bis 'Eure' swung to the left flank of the 1e Companie 41e BCC attack and entered the town of Stonne on the main street near the village church. A column of Pz.Rgt. 8 tanks was lined up preparing for a counterattack, and were taking shelter along the buildings on the street. The column consisted mainly of PzKpfw II light tanks, escorted by a few PzKpfw III and PzKPfw IV tanks for support.

Billotte instructed his driver, Sgt. Durupt, to engage the lead tank at point-blank range with the 75mm gun while he fired at the trailing tank [the commander operated the 47mm gun in the turret and the driver aimed and fired the 75mm hull gun]. The panzer column was so closely bunched together that once the first and last tanks were hit, the others could not move. Billotte proceeded down the street, systematically engaging and knocking out every tank in the column.
After exiting the village, Billotte encountered a trailing column of tanks advancing down the road and destroyed these was well. The Germans fought back, but their guns could not penetrate the heavy frontal armor of the Char B1 bis; Billotte's tank was struck 140 times in a few minutes of the combat. Exiting the town, Billotte directed his tank down the hairpin turn towards the valley below, destroying two 37mm anti-tank guns in the process. He finally turned back and returned back through the village.
In total, Billotte claimed 13 German tanks, though the number may be a bit high due to the presence of several wrecked tanks including Koch's PzKpfw IV from the previous day's fighting

(quotes found on another forum, unfortunately I don't have the original source)

Similarly, Guderian apparently described an encounter with a B1 in which pretty much everything they threw at it, from 20mm, 37mm and a captured French 47mm AT gun, simply bounced off the B1's armour...