Questions for our American friends

[bowlinggreen]

Originally Posted by Davemetalhead

I have a question - it's my understanding that the prices you see on a shop shelf may not be the price you pay at the till - does that not get bloody confusing? And is it for everything - food, electricals, clothing etc.?

If I'm right in thinking this, why don't the shops just add the tax there and then and showin the prices on the shelves?

It's a longstanding American marketing gimmick. Supposedly, if you price stuff at XX.99, rather than an even dollar amount, or some random number that includes tax, people will think it is cheaper and a better deal, since they look at the lower dollar amount on the left and don't consider the 99 cents at the end. Stupid, but you know.

I take it tax is included in all retail price tags where you live? Not so here. Tax is added on at the register. Different states have different levels of taxation so companies aren't going to print out national flyers saying you can get good X at such and such a price everywhere, tax included.

Where I live, sales tax is 6 percent. Some things may be exempt like clothes and food and hygiene items, but again this will vary from state to state. And taxes vary wildly for tobacco. You can get that cheap in some southern tobacco states, but you'll pay a HORRENDOUS markup in some tax-happy northern states.

[charliels531]

Originally Posted by Davemetalhead

I have a question - it's my understanding that the prices you see on a shop shelf may not be the price you pay at the till - does that not get bloody confusing? And is it for everything - food, electricals, clothing etc.?

If I'm right in thinking this, why don't the shops just add the tax there and then and showing the prices on the shelves?

Europe uses a "value added tax" which is imposed on the seller and thus included in the shelf price. All but a handful of states use a "sales tax" which is imposed on the buyer. The amount of such tax is not uniform from state to state, county to county, or city to county.

This system goes back to the time of World War Two. Those of us who have grown up with it simply do the rough math in our heads.

Americans like to lie to themselves. For example, most Americans think that taxes in Europe are much higher than in the United States because in Europe they are imposed by a unitary government. In the United States they are imposed by at least three non-unitary layers of government (federal, state, and county or city) and the total bill is usually higher than Europe until you reach the upper 5% of income or so, at which point the system reverses and the very rich spend a much smaller proportion of their income, though more in dollar terms.

[HugoHackenbush]

Originally Posted by bowlinggreen

It's a longstanding American marketing gimmick. Supposedly, if you price stuff at XX.99, rather than an even dollar amount, or some random number that includes tax, people will think it is cheaper and a better deal, since they look at the lower dollar amount on the left and don't consider the 99 cents at the end. Stupid, but you know.

I take it tax is included in all retail price tags where you live? Not so here. Tax is added on at the register. Different states have different levels of taxation so companies aren't going to print out national flyers saying you can get good X at such and such a price everywhere, tax included.

Where I live, sales tax is 6 percent. Some things may be exempt like clothes and food and hygiene items, but again this will vary from state to state. And taxes vary wildly for tobacco. You can get that cheap in some southern tobacco states, but you'll pay a HORRENDOUS markup in some tax-happy northern states.

New Hampshire has no general sales tax. Of course, the State owns all the liquor stores.

[dbailey]

Originally Posted by charliels531

Americans like to lie to themselves. For example, most Americans think that taxes in Europe are much higher than in the United States because in Europe they are imposed by a unitary government..

They would be correct
VAT 20% purchase tax on everything but food ( some foods are taxed like biscuits)
Income tax basic 20%
Income tax higher 40% (over about 40K GBP per year)
NI tax 12% depending on income
Fuel duty about 70%
Gambling tax...not sure
Inheritance tax on value of estate above about 400K 40%
New car duty on top of the VAT...not sure of the rate

[vinceprince]

Originally Posted by charliels531

Americans like to lie to themselves. For example, most Americans think that taxes in Europe are much higher than in the United States because in Europe they are imposed by a unitary government. In the United States they are imposed by at least three non-unitary layers of government (federal, state, and county or city) and the total bill is usually higher than Europe until you reach the upper 5% of income or so, at which point the system reverses and the very rich spend a much smaller proportion of their income, though more in dollar terms.

What you pay for US health insurance should be included as tax to compare with European countries with socialised medicine.

What extra % would that be on average?

BTW we only pay income tax on our earnings above £11,500 in the UK.
Tax thresholds are much more important than %s for low earners who can also get extra cash through tax credits - a low earnings benefit in reality.

[charliels531]

Originally Posted by dbailey

They would be correct
VAT 20% purchase tax on everything but food ( some foods are taxed like biscuits)
Income tax basic 20%
Income tax higher 40% (over about 40K GBP per year)
NI tax 12% depending on income
Fuel duty about 70%
Gambling tax...not sure
Inheritance tax on value of estate above about 400K 40%
New car duty on top of the VAT...not sure of the rate

Tax whiners are pretty much the same everywhere. So you buy a new car and die each year?

So let's talk. In the U.S. the federal income tax depends on your income, your family organization, and what KIND of income you have. Tax rates start at 10% for anyone making more than $5,000 per year up to 40% for income over $750,000. However, that's for wages. Capital gains are taxed at a maximum of 15%, and certain classes of income are considered "capital gains" which are really deferred earnings. Mitt Romney, the last Republican presidential candidate to release his tax returns, receives about $25 million per year, but pays marginally less than 15%.

So a teacher making $50,000 pays 25%; a former CEO making $25 million pays 15%. Clear enough?

But that's just the first layer--Figure 25% for middle-income people.

Next there is the state. All but 7 states have an income tax, ranging from 3% of gross income to 9%. All but 5 or 6 states have sales taxes which range from 3% on goods purchased to 6%. But localities can also impose sales taxes. I live about 30 meters north of the northern city limit of Seattle, in King County, so if I go to buy a widget next door I pay 9.9% sales tax. But if I cross the street to the Seattle widget shop, I pay 10.1%. For that I get fire and police protection, sidewalks, parks, and other amenities.

Next there is the county. Do I own my home? The last time my home was appraised it was $550,000. The tax on it is 4%, which pays for schools, county parks, the sheriff, the local court system, and other modest amenities. In case you want to avoid the math, that's $22,000.

Then we get into the world of excise taxes or, as we call them, sin taxes. 40% on liquor, 300% on cigarettes, $.02 per ounce on soda.

The median American pays 42% of gross income in taxes.

And, as vinceprince mentioned, that does not include any medical care.

But it does pay for that godawful circus we call "defense". Get the Orange Ogre pissed off, and we will bomb the bloody shit out of you and the horse you rode in on.

There used to be special tax breaks for blind people, old people, and large families. The recent "tax cuts" did away with those.

So, you see, taxes are indeed the price we pay for civilization. But it's much better to be very rich, because your tax burden is much lighter.

---------
EDIT: I forgot payroll taxes. 6.75% for social security, 2% for over-65 health care, 1% for unemployment insurance.

[bowlinggreen]

Quote vinceprince:

What you pay for US health insurance should be included as tax to compare with European countries with socialised medicine.

What extra % would that be on average?

BTW we only pay income tax on our earnings above £11,500 in the UK.
Tax thresholds are much more important than %s for low earners who can also get extra cash through tax credits - a low earnings benefit in reality.

Like Charlie says, health insurance is not included in the standard taxes we pay. It's a significant addon - should you choose to pay for it.

Here's a nice chart of average costs broken down by states. Note that older people will pay significantly more.

https://www.valuepenguin.com/average...alth-insurance

When Obamacare passed, it was a sop to the poorer people, who got some relief, but the working/middle class was still getting raped, and they screamed. Until Trump killed it, there was an "individual mandate" which sucked money away from poorer uninsured people by taking it out of their tax refunds as well.

These two things were a significant factor in Trump's getting elected, IMHO.

Also as Charlie says, money that should go towards national health care is instead plowed into our huge military and associated industries.

As the baby boomer generation continues to age, I think there will come a point where we will literally no longer be able to afford being a military superpower, since we will have so many old people to pay for. Not unless we go into truly catastrophic levels of debt, which will eventually kill us.

[vinceprince]

Originally Posted by bowlinggreen

Quote vinceprince:


Like Charlie says, health insurance is not included in the standard taxes we pay. It's a significant addon - should you choose to pay for it.

Here's a nice chart of average costs broken down by states. Note that older people will pay significantly more.

https://www.valuepenguin.com/average...alth-insurance

That looks very high .
In fact the average is more than I pay in Direct Taxes in total for a year.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by bowlinggreen

I think there will come a point where we will literally no longer be able to afford being a military superpower, since we will have so many old people to pay for. Not unless we go into truly catastrophic levels of debt, which will eventually kill us.

It might not depend on the debt itself, but who holds it (foreign vs US)

But these days, mind-boggling things happen. Central Banks can bail out financial institutions for trillions without printing a single dollar, and there's no inflation because not a single buck is spent in the regular economy. Who knows what other accounting tricks... excuse me.. innovation they have?

I think you're ok unless other countries stop trusting the $$$. If that happens, we can expect a first class disaster, because all the $$$-cash (including forgeries) will go back to the only place it can be spent, and it will cause massive inflation. Anyone disagree?

[bowlinggreen]

Originally Posted by palo5

I think you're ok unless other countries stop trusting the $$$. If that happens, we can expect a first class disaster, because all the $$$-cash (including forgeries) will go back to the only place it can be spent, and it will cause massive inflation. Anyone disagree?

Can't disagree.

There is always the possibility that the dollar could be replaced as the world's go-to currency by something else, depending on geopolitical events. China being the biggest threat there. If they decided to trample on to the world stage as a superpower in concert with allies who dislike the West, and there was a huge military disaster for the USA in the western Pacific, then the financial world order might be abruptly rearranged.

This would plunge us into a depression worse than the one we experienced in the 1930s.