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November 16th, 2018, 09:58 PM | #4331 | |
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November 16th, 2018, 10:13 PM | #4332 | |
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That kind of ambiguity is a problem. Similarly, if you look to the powers of the Brussels bureaucracy and the Strasbourg courts, you see kinds of abrogation of sovereignty that adhering nations plainly didn't anticipate. That's not just Brexiteers in the UK; Ireland is very Europe, but they're quite surprised to learn that Margaret Vestager has decided what she thinks Ireland's corporate tax rates should be. Ideally, Constitutions don't offer these kinds of surprises. The US Constitution hammered out many of these thorny issues at the founding of the country (although famously not the thorniest one of all, slavery-- hence a very bloody war). It is plainly a surpris to Britons to discover that someone in Brussels has the power to compel Abu Qatada to remain-- if you wanted to design an outrage to sour people on the idea of Europe, this would be an example. One can note that this irritation with a Strasbourg ordered frontiers policy has had an impact far beyond the UK, the flood of migration is what swung nations like Poland and Hungary to dangerously reactionary territory. On being told "Europe compels you to permit migrants to trample your borders, and indeed to settle in your country" -- did they say "OK, we agreed to that?" No, they said "screw you". What's different is that the UK's challenge to the European Constitution was explicit and up front-- note that Brussels, Strasbourg and Berlin haven't indicated any interest in "making Budapest and Warsaw 'pay a price' for their defiance of European treaties". Last edited by deepsepia; November 16th, 2018 at 10:22 PM.. |
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November 16th, 2018, 10:51 PM | #4333 |
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Who in Brussels has that power? I remember the case well and it was the ECtHR in Strasbourg that ruled that Qatada could not be deported. That court is not part of the EU, it does not fall under the power of the EU parliament, it is part of the CofE. The EU's court is the ECJ.
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November 16th, 2018, 11:04 PM | #4334 | |
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The reason for the groundswell of support for UKIP was that none of the mainstream parties that actually fielded candidates were offering an alternative to remain. Doesn't matter what electoral system if every candidate has the same view on a particular issue, you still can't change policy at the ballot box. I've said before that I think the vote to leave was a terrible mistake, but I don't believe having the vote was a mistake, because there has been no credible alternative to vote for at a general election if you wanted to leave. UKIP were never credible, they were a personality cult, but they served as a lightning rod, they made at least some politicians realise that there was a significant part of the population whose voice was not being heard, whose wishes were not being represented by any of the major parties. To his credit, (and I would never vote for him, so it pains me to say this) Cameron holding the referendum allowed them to be heard and it was the right thing to do. The fact that the British public made the wrong choice does not mean that we should not have been given that choice in the first place. |
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November 17th, 2018, 02:02 AM | #4335 | ||
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. . . and its plain enough that the frustration that "Leave" feels is with both Brussels and Strasbourg. As the "European Constitution" is effectively not one document, but rather a number of treaties, and its instruments of government both bureaucratic and juridical, there's more than one burr in the saddle. One might observe that many nations that are enthusiastic about some aspects of European integration have found popular revolt over others. Denmark, for example, decided to keep their currency-- that wasn't the government or the great and the good, that was a popular rejection in a referendum. This makes the EU a rather odd Federal union, in which there is quite a lot of heterogeneity in what constituent nation states think they have agreed to . . . As the American Civil War illustrates, such inconsistencies lead to grief. Note that Denmark finally acceded to Maastricht in a later referendum, after a number of "opt outs" were negotiated. So what's striking is that this European Constitution routinely meets with popular resistance, Britain's objections seem less an exception and more the rule. A more thoughtful European negotiator, dealing with a more politically savvy Tory government ought have been able to avoid this mess. Last edited by deepsepia; November 17th, 2018 at 02:12 AM.. |
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November 17th, 2018, 05:41 AM | #4336 |
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Human rights are not reserved only for people we like or approve of. Another example would be Julian Assange, a man I despise. The US authorities were indeed lying in wait for him had he submitted to extradition to Sweden.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8636336.html Their tactics are sound, although the inherent leakiness and indiscipline of Federal government agencies ("you can't get the staff") is also apparent. Assange will go to extraordinary lengths to evade justice. But before it agrees to extradite Mr Assange, Britain, Ecuador or AN Other would need to satisfy itself that he will receive due process and a fair trial in the USA. Given the highly political nature of the case and the clear animosity towards him from authorities which have been leaked by him, I think that is doubtful. Unless the trial is going to be honest and fair, I would tell the USA (politely) to go fuck itself. It is up to the US authorities to make the application so everyone knows where they stand. In their shoes I would already have done it - the mere clandestine approach they are still adoptiing prejudices any claim theu want to make in a British court that Mr Assange will receive due process. Our courts are independent and will not extradite him unless a proper case is proven, so it is up the US authorities to get busy.
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November 17th, 2018, 07:49 AM | #4337 |
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All MSM in the UK is now firmly anti-Brexit. The Daily Express and Star have been bought by Daily Mirror Group and the Daily Mail have replaced it's editor with a fanatical Remainer.
It is now impossible to watch TV or read newspapers without getting anti-Brexit propaganda. We know that the EU pays a lot of outlets to preach this; well it's UK taxpayers, the EU doesn't have any money. But how much is Soros paying Remainers such as MPs? Listening to Parliament I was wondering if MPs get paid say £1000 or £5000 for every time they say "People's Vote". I did manage to find one amusing video about the possible saving of Brexit. https://www.captiongenerator.com/117...g-saves-Brexit I don't think it is possible now. However the EU Pandora's Box has been opened and the divisions and nastiness are not going to go away. If Brexit is not delivered then I think UKIP will gain in the next general election. I also wonder how the EU will look after the May EU elections with more far right candidates elected. Last edited by judy84; November 17th, 2018 at 08:26 AM.. |
November 17th, 2018, 09:08 AM | #4338 |
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Some thoughts of others:
"I have worked for UK secession from the EU for 25 years (since Maastricht). On 23rd June 2016, a majority of my compatriots agreed with me, and we voted to leave. If we do not now leave, the EU Referendum becomes a monument to the death of British democracy." "Just remember, when Corbyn walks into No. 10, don’t blame the brexiteers. We won the referendum and then were subsequently ignored. Blame the Remainers running the government, the ones who never believed in Brexit, the ones who have intended to ruin this from the start." |
November 17th, 2018, 09:42 AM | #4339 |
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I'm wishing for a no-deal Brexit now.
The country will go down the tubes and then we can look forward to the show trials and public executions of Rees-Mogg, Johnson, Farage and Cameron. Long time since there was something inspiring to watch on the telly. Nothing beats a choking tory...apart from a well-paid prostitute of course. |
November 17th, 2018, 10:05 AM | #4340 |
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Brexiteer cabinet ministers in plan to shift May on EU deal
A group of five ministers in Theresa May's top team are hoping to persuade her to make changes to her draft Brexit deal, the BBC understands. Leader of the Commons Andrea Leadsom is believed to be co-ordinating the group. The five ministers include Michael Gove and Liam Fox - who on Friday publicly threw their support behind the PM - plus Penny Mordaunt and Chris Grayling. Details: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46243745
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