Communism. Good or bad. What do you really know about Communism?

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by palo5

What you should know is, Marx is responsible for more change in modern social thinking than almost anyone. Think about your own social services, mostly copied from German ideas influenced by Marx, and you'll see how true it is

Hmmm . . . gotta argue that one.

Marx isn't actually responsible for changes in social services. He never ran anything, and he was actively hostile to the idea of a progressive social democracy. Marx was no friend to democratic trades unionists.

Its more the response to the threat of Revolution that produces social democracy -- you can read Pope Leo XIII's "Rerum Novarum" as "progressive" if you want to-- but its plainly anti-revolutionary. "Christian Democratic" parties have a big place for better treatment of workers as part of the social contract, as do non-revolutionary workers' parties; the Communists want something else.

Marx himself wrote the Critique of the Gotha Program as an attack on social democracy.

Originally Posted by Karl Marx

The German Workers' party — at least if it adopts the program — shows that its socialist ideas are not even skin-deep

{snip}

Between capitalist and communist society there lies the period of the revolutionary transformation of the one into the other. Corresponding to this is also a political transition period in which the state can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat.

Now the program does not deal with this nor with the future state of communist society.

Marx wasn't interested in labor unions, pension, or improved conditions for the working man in the current State. He's very clear that these are irrelevant to his concerns, which is the overthrow of society and the founding of a new regime.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by palo5

Have you ever read what Bismarck thought? If you can say something like that, it looks like you haven't

I challenge you to demonstrate that Count von Bismarck was motivated by Marxist principles when introducing the old age pension.

Originally Posted by palo5

You are taught that Bismarck represented "Blut und Eisen" and German militarism, everything that the UK was taught for generations to despise, while quietly being taught that the gentlemanly British Empire was morally superior, despite being far worse

While this is more or less true, it is not particularly relevant to whether or not the German social welfare model was influenced by Marxism. We were terrible people of course - all the photographs were edited to remove our horns, tails and cloven feet.

Originally Posted by palo5

But history is catching up with you

A paltry taunt, Comrade Palo. I am not worried about our history.

[cginok]

Originally Posted by palo5

There's a very simple reason for that in the US. To paraphrase Gore Vidal "People hate taxes in America because they don't get anything back for them -- it's all wasted on the military". Under those conditions, who would want to pay taxes?

What would they say if their tax money was spent like ours?

Where I live we pay high taxes. Even the unemployed & pensioners. No one would mind paying less, but we all know that for the most part the money is used wisely and for the social good. We have universal healthcare, free college education, and outperform the US & UK and almost everyone in the world by a long way in education comparisons. We have a small military, and no problems with political finance. We have a large welfare state, and all support it

There's no such thing as a free lunch? Actually there is, if people need it, but it's a well-organized government program, and there are almost no freeloaders

I'll tell you something else: US students have been polled many times on this question, and they always give the same answer: Do you agree with this policy?: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs". They always agree with it, and many of them think it's in the Bill of Rights!

But in fact, it's pure Karl Marx

Nice to know you agree with us without knowing it

Free? So what you're saying is, the people who grow/raise that food get no money for it? The people who transport that food from the farms to the cities get no money for doing so? Those government workers are paid no salary?

The problem with the US educational system is not in higher education. The universities in the US are, for the most part, the best in the world...that's why our university campuses are filled with students from other countries.

And yes, we all know you don't spend much on your military. That's because you have Uncle Sam doing that for you. But that's going to change, no matter how is elected to the White House now or in the future. Enjoy trying to fight of Russia with your tiny little armies.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by cginok

And yes, we all know you don't spend much on your military. That's because you have Uncle Sam doing that for you. But that's going to change, no matter how is elected to the White House now or in the future. Enjoy trying to fight of Russia with your tiny little armies.

We will miss American forces if they leave us. In return, America will miss the 34% of the basing costs contributed by NATO member states for the 79,000 military personnel America maintains in Europe - worth $2.5bn annually. She will miss the various airfields and land bases adjacent to the Russian Federation. She will miss the 80,000 plus British soldiers she still routinely draws on as an auxilliary reserve. No doubt she will miss our friendship and cooperation if she elects to sever the relationship.

Comrade Palo will be driving the first T-14 battle tank onto British soil, or more likely the second, because he isn't stupid.

But more likely, Russia will confine her aggression to cyberspace and exposing various electoral frauds being indulged in by the American politicians inside America. In view of the somewhat shaky relationship with the Trump administration, Mr Putin might well start to focus on email evidence of Republican gerrymandering - or she might simply point out their spelling and grammatical errors.

[Arturo2nd]

Originally Posted by Wendigo

Not all nuns are altruistic, take Mother Teresa for one

Mother Teresa is a poor example to use as a non-altruistic nun. While I am no expert on her or her career, I am deeply suspect about the motives of her critics.

As someone educated in Catholic grammar schools, I assure you that there were many mean spirited and even sadistic bitches in habits who could be better used to support the assertion that not all nuns are altruistic.

There are many troubled people espousing all varieties of faith and even no faith at all. But, the few truly saintly people I have encountered have been religious.

Originally Posted by Brian249x

A lot of people feel free to harshly criticize public figures (e.g., "LeBron quit in the Finals.") without having any credentials themselves.

Let us be perfectly clear. I have been guilty of this particular form of arrogance myself.

[Estreeter]

Originally Posted by palo5

Actually, that's not true. Not that you'd know, because you don't even like representation for workers, ie, Labor Unions

Not quite right, I've said this before
I like the idea of a workers union, every time I have stated I hate unions I'm only speaking about the ones in Australia and what they have become, I have said I admire what labour unions of that past have done for workers getting fair conditions and wages , I've also said to xyzde that the workers in mines in third world countries should form unions. As said I hate what our unions here have become, they have no business in Gay Marriage, Greenie, Aboriginal Reconciliation, and many other PC issues, ever since they started down the path of straying down where they have no business labour union membership has dropped to an all time low and quite frankly I don't blame people abandoning them for just that reason ... becoming a lobby group for bullshit issues that have nothing to do workplace issues, on top of that they have become just as greedy in demands of employers as the employers themselves.

Also, you can look back through this thread, I agree with universal healthcare and also education should be free for all.

Oh, I forgot I love you too

[Nobody1]

Originally Posted by cginok

Free? So what you're saying is, the people who grow/raise that food get no money for it? The people who transport that food from the farms to the cities get no money for doing so? Those government workers are paid no salary?

Who pays the universe that provides you with free food?

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

. . . and you're back to whatabboutery, which is your go-to strategy when your claims about Marxism are confronted.

The "whatabboutery" is nothing else as the truth.
As non-English speaker, I had to search the meaning of "whatabboutery" on internet... and the definition is brutal for your argumentations.

whataboutery (countable and uncountable, plural whatabouteries) (informal, pejorative)

• Protesting at hypocrisy; responding to criticism by accusing one's opponent of similar or worse faults.
• Protesting at inconsistency; refusing to act in one instance unless similar action is taken in other similar instances.

"Protesting at hypocrisy". So let me give you an advise. Don't use any more this term, because it's absolutely counter productive for your defense.

If you want to blame a system, when using another one, use a fair one, not a rotten one.

What is the problem?
You point old fact that have failed, but exactly get the same problems or even worse in the system that you defend.
USA is a false democracy, a comedy in which American citizens are prisoners of professional politicians.

As Brian pointed in another topic, Communism can be democratic.
Look at French Communist Georges Marchais. He was a democrat.
You also mentionned Jeremy Corbyn in one of your first answer on this topic.

Originally Posted by Mal Hombre

Powered flight was not a fantasy,it had been proved feasible with gliders and models,Marxism/Communism has been proved unfeasible by many,many failed experiments.All of which involved great suffering to the ordinary people it was supposed to benefit.

I'm sure that there were far more attempts that failed of flying tests than more egalitarian societies were tried.
So... let's give 10'000 more tries to fairest societies, because Capitalism sucks for 4/5 of the world population.

Did you observe that a majority of British Capitalist stooges want to close the doors to poor people born abroad, who daily suffer because of Capitalism ?

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by Estreeter

I've also said to xyzde that the workers in mines in third world countries should form unions.

That's what I do not understand.
Why aren't they immediatly paid correctly ?
Why our governments tolerate that our enterprises abuse of young uneducated workers abroad ?

That's not because you work in good conditions thanks to the social fights of your predecessors, that you must tolerate dirty greedy people abusing of weakest ones.
How would you react if you see a 30 years old healthy guy, badly kicking the ass to a young 8 years old boy who has done nothing wrong ?

Workers of all the nations. Unite!
Shareholders manipulate workers thanks to their divisions and their cowardices.

[Estreeter]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

As Brian pointed in another topic, Communism can be democratic.

If I was broke, had no money at all, I'd borrow thousands and bet heavily that if there was a Communist Government that had a democratic election, by it's citizens and not a panel or council of experts and the outcome of election results was a majority wanted to oust the Commie system and bring in private capitalism ..... That election result would not reflect what happens next

Originally Posted by xyzde69

That's what I do not understand.
Why aren't they immediatly paid correctly ?

Err, I have said before and will go looking for my post that workers in third world countries should form labor unions, get this right, it is their problem, not my countries, labor unions over the world and I mean real ones from the past not present day PC bullshit unions did their own fighting I think, and here is my main question ........ Who are you to say what is the correct pay ??? The problem with people like you are you think your doing a justice but, if they're happy working for 3 dollars a day and that feeds them then that's for them to decide not someone living in Europe where living standards are higher and crying saying look how unfair this is ....... I say to people like you is if your that concerned about it , go there and put your money where your mouth is rather than sit on a couch with a lap top because that's who I'd listen to more, the action person rather than talk person, you're actually no different to a poiltician

Originally Posted by xyzde69

Shareholders manipulate workers thanks to their divisions and their cowardices.

What part of this won't you want to understand, The worker does not have to be there working for the company owned by shareholders.
Here's one for ya, I'm entitled to a grands worth of shares in the company I work for once year, I've refused the offer every year for one reason, I hate them and would be embarrassed to own them because I own shares on quite a few companies and the only ones I do own are in ones where I would buy the product or use it's service, the idiots I work for don't comply with that requirement by me.