Communism. Good or bad. What do you really know about Communism?

[bowlinggreen]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

But when Soljenitsyn wrote his last book about how the Jews were in the top of the Soviet leadership and contributed to execute or "starve" (a fact that is still not agreed by several historians) millions of Russians, suddenly, in the USA, he became... an antisemitic writter.

Capitalist masters are easely manipulating their stooges.

Wait a minute, so now Jews are evil capitalists who control the world dialogue?

Are you sure you are not actually a National Socialist?

Originally Posted by weilercort

Near the Black Sea? Hmm, reminds me of Clan of the Cave Bear, especially the movie version with Daryl Hannah. Daryl Hannah has blue eyes so....

I think I read the first of those books many years ago in HS. IIRC, wasn't the hot homo sapiens named Alya and didn't she end up mating with a Neanderthal named Brod or Broon or something like that?

Slutting around with another species in 30,000 BC, no wonder those blue eyes got around.

I remember that part because the idea of a sexy slim-legged blonde woman getting pumped by a hairy muscular Neanderthal from behind got me excited. I probably had a wank to that. A perv in training, even back then.

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by Wendigo

The Japanese for their countless vile atrocities brought disaster on themselves, I have no issue at all with the USA having chosen Japan as the target for the first atomic bombs, it quickened the end of the war.

This is disputed by some Japanese historians.

Japanese historian Tsuyoshi Hasegawa argued that the entry of the Soviet Union into the war against Japan "played a much greater role than the atomic bombs in inducing Japan to surrender because it dashed any hope that Japan could terminate the war through Moscow's mediation".

Originally Posted by Wendigo

You may want to bleat about capitalists having used the bombs first but be under no doubt if the USSR had those weapons at that time that Uncle Joe would have used them if pressed.

Typical comments of someone endoctrinated by the capitalist matrix.
The fact is that USSR never used nuclear bombs during conflicts.
You always speak at the place of other people telling that they would have done that... But... THEY DIDN'T.

I read a very interesting observation in the book "Sapiens": when USSR collapsed, everything happened peacefully, when usually dictatorships fell in blood and butchery. USSR leaders were quite nice. They could have commited suicide and nuclear bombed the entire world. It didn't happen.
Today which countries still are the most brutal ? The Occidental ones.

[Silicone Carne]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

I read a very interesting observation in the book "Sapiens": when USSR collapsed, everything happened peacefully, when usually dictatorships fell in blood and butchery. USSR leaders were quite nice. They could have commited suicide and nuclear bombed the entire world. It didn't happen.

Oh really??!! Such a bunch of nice guys!!



That reminds me that last week, one of my employees missed a great opportunity with some big clients. Because of his incompetence, they signed with a close competitor. Should I fire the guy?

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by bowlinggreen

Wait a minute, so now Jews are evil capitalists who control the world dialogue?

Oh dear. You mix everything.
I just mentionned the hypocrisy of the Capitalist propaganda.

• When Soljenitsyn described the Gulag his voice was pure and perfect for the Capitalist propaganda.
• When the same Soljenistsyn described the Judeo Bolchevism, his voice was wrong and distorted for the same Capitalist propaganda.

Do you understand my point now ?
How can we trust in Capitalist propaganda ?
Why suddenly all what he wrote about the Gulag would have been correct, (a form of Gospel word) , if he was wrong on the Judeo Bolchevism.

Originally Posted by bowlinggreen

Are you sure you are not actually a National Socialist?

It would be very difficult. Anarchism dislike Nazism and Nazism hated Anarcho-communism.

One thing is sure... Capitalism is in perpetual redemption after the horrors made by Nazism, because Capitalism (a system that YOU strongly defend) sponsored Nazism.
It's a fact that American shareholders helped Hitler to rise power.
That's a thorn in your foot that you will NEVER be able to remove.
As your government has nuclear bombed twice women and children in Japan instead to negociate.

By the way you are a guy who wrote to use nuclear weapons on China.
It seems that killing innocent people doesn't disturb you at all.

Originally Posted by SanteeFats

So the US was immoral for dropping two nukes to save approximately one million US causalities???

Before the two nuke bombs, Japanese and American governments already knew that Japan had lost the war. I quote the French sources (often taken from American sources) and then I google translated them for you.
The most interesting ones are the last comments in bold by Eisenhower himself.

The exchanges between Hirohito, the cabinet and the staff show that the Japanese empire was not about to surrender unconditionally. Japanese archives and Kōichi Kido's Keeper's Seal newspaper indicate that the emperor and cabinet insisted on conditional surrender, while the government was conducting parallel negotiations with the Soviet Union. Among these conditions were the disarmament of the troops by the Japanese authorities, the judgment of the criminals by the Japanese authorities, the absence of occupation forces on Japanese soil and the preservation of the imperial regime and the Emperor (Herbert Bix, Hirohito and the Making of Modern Japan, 2001, pp. 500-511).

In response to the July 26 Potsdam Declaration, the Japanese government held a press conference on August 28, at which Prime Minister Kantarō Suzuki announced Japan's intention to "ignore" (mokusatsu) the ultimatum. However, there is still an ambiguity as to Suzuki's attitude: in favor of capitulation, he had to deal with the army's hawkish faction, and had perhaps wished, by this expression, to express a simple refusal to approach the issue by public, or mean that the ultimatum did not bring anything new. The term, however, was understood by the United States as a categorical denial of surrender (Herbert Bix, Hirohito and the Making of Modern Japan, 2001, pp. 500-501 Paul-Yanic Laquerre, Shôwa: Chronicles of a Fallen God, Kindle 2008, 89).

Between July 27 and August 6, when Hirohito was under intense pressure from his brothers and uncles who asked him to abdicate in favor of his son, the government took refuge in silence. In anticipation of a solution to the negotiations with the Soviets, the Emperor ordered the Keeper of the Seals Koichi Kido on July 31 to take measures to defend "at all costs" the imperial insignia.

On August 2, Shigenori Tōgō, Minister of Foreign Affairs, conveyed to the Japanese ambassador to Moscow, Naotake Satō, a message that the Emperor, the Prime Minister and the Imperial Headquarters "put all their hopes" in mind. acceptance by the Soviet Union of a peace mission led by Prince Fumimaro Konoe. The ambassador replied by recommending that the government accept the terms of the Potsdam ultimatum.

Pressed by the emperor, wanting to protect his prerogatives, Tōgō refused any direct negotiations with the other allies even when Kaina, the president of the spy bureau declared to him on August 4: "It is not enough to negotiate only with the 'Soviet Union. There is no hope if we continue like this. In some ways, behind the scenes, we have to negotiate with the United States, Britain, and China. ".

The order to attack
General Spaatz, commander of the combat command of the US Air Force.

On July 21, 1945, President Harry S. Truman approves the dropping of the bombs on Japan. On 24 July, the order is relayed by the Secretary of War, Henri Stimson, and the next day, General Thomas Handy sends a secret order to General Spaatz, authorizing the dropping of the bomb after August 3, as soon as the weather will allow it, on Hiroshima, Kokura, Niigata or Nagasaki. This will be the only written order regarding the use of the atomic bomb. Spaatz is responsible for informing Mac Arthur and Nimitz. The order does not evoke the nature of the explosive, merely mentioning a special bomb.

Only a few people were aware of the orders given by President Truman (see the free translation of Handy's order to Spaatz).

Here are google translated comments of American Generals.

Eisenhower will write in his memoir The White House Years:

"In 1945, Secretary of War Stimson, then visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there must be a number of valid reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. During his exposition of the important facts, I was filled with a feeling of sadness and part of my deep disagreement, first of all on the basis of my belief that Japan was already beaten and that the bombing was completely useless, secondly because that I thought our country should not shock world opinion by using a bomb that I did not think was necessary to save the lives of Americans (Eisenhower, Dwight D. The White House Years: Mandate for Change, 1953 -56 Garden City: Doubleday, pp. 312-313). "

Further, he adds:

"MacArthur thought the bombing was completely useless from a military point of view. "

One study, the United States Strategic Bombing Survey, organized by the US Army after the capitulation, involved interrogating hundreds of Japanese military and civilian leaders about the bombings; it appears that :

"According to a thorough study of all the facts and with the support of the testimony of Japanese leaders still alive, the study group is of the opinion that Japan would certainly capitulated before December 31, 1945 and perhaps even before 1 November 1945. And even if the bombs had not been dropped, even if the USSR had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned and planned (United States Strategic Bombing Survey, Japan's Struggle to End the War, Government Printing Office, Washington.). "

Originally Posted by Estreeter

See, he fails to mention Males, by only stating women and kids kind of adds to the horror,
Had he just said men it wouldn't seem quite as bad a thing it was.

Males could have been considered as potential soldiers, when women and children were not.

Originally Posted by Silicone Carne

Oh really??!! Such a bunch of nice guys!!



That reminds me that last week, one of my employees missed a great opportunity with some big clients. Because of his incompetence, they signed with a close competitor. Should I fire the guy?

But that's what happened in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Truman nuclear bombed Japanase women and children because their emperor and government didn't immediatly surrender.

[Estreeter]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

Do you understand my point now ?
How can we trust in Capitalist propaganda ?
Why suddenly all what he wrote about the Gulag would have been correct, (a form of Gospel word) , if he was wrong on the Judeo Bolchevism.

Not really

Dropping the nuclear weapon twice on Japan wasn't good in many ways, can't deny that, but also good it hastened the end of WW2, and so what if some Japanese historians dispute that, what makes them right ??? fact is we can never know what would have happened if the bombs were not detonated over Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

It amazes me how you can mention that and that capitalists were to blame and the Yanks and Roosevelt and Truman ....... Yet you fail, once again blame Stalin for his actions in his own country ..... how many died there ???

Once again, we can fault our own ways, you just can't seem to see anything wrong or conveniently fail to mention what Marx's ideas led to

Seriously, I can't handle critics of politicians past and present, many are placed in a situation of damned if you do or damned if you don't, not a position anybody likes to be in ...... but those who have never held public office should maybe try it one day and see how they handle a crisis or war or budget or anything.

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by Estreeter

It amazes me how you can mention that and that capitalists were to blame and the Yanks and Roosevelt and Truman ....... Yet you fail, once again blame Stalin for his actions in his own country ..... how many died there ???

You don't get any numbers. No Occidental historians get the access to these datas. So why do you believe them ?

When a few American historians (often) claimed there were millions of people killed in USSR, first they never mention that mainly was during what we could considered to be a Civil War and its consequences, secondly, there are plenty of other European historians telling that there never were millions of people killed, but between 700'000 to 800'000 opponents (who defended human exploitation...) executed.
I do not defend the fact they had to be killed. I only mention that was a form of war.
So when Judeo-Bolchevik and Stalinist killed people, it was crime, but when US government nuclear bombed Japanese civilians, it was war.

IMO both resulted from the same problems: conflicts. Conflicts that have taken the population hostage.

When Tony Blair went on war against the wish British population or Sarkozy against the French one, didn't they behave like dictators?

Originally Posted by Estreeter

Once again, we can fault our own ways, you just can't seem to see anything wrong or conveniently fail to mention what Marx's ideas led to

If the elites and the richs would have followed Marx's ideas, they would have shared their wealth and there would have been no conflicts.
That's the only truth...

Originally Posted by Estreeter

Seriously, I can't handle critics of politicians past and present, many are placed in a situation of damned if you do or damned if you don't, not a position anybody likes to be in ...... but those who have never held public office should maybe try it one day and see how they handle a crisis or war or budget or anything.

But you can handle to critic Marxist politicians, who wanted first to defend the working-class of terrible misery, when bourgeois were extremely rich and lived very old. (Do not forget that the average age of a European or Russian proletarian was... 28 years old).
So what is your opinion about the Bush Sr and Bush Jr wars, the French and American wars in Vietnam, etc... ?

[Estreeter]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

You don't get any numbers. No Occidental historians get the access to these datas. So why do you believe them ?

Fact is we'll never know a figure,

Originally Posted by xyzde69

So when Judeo-Bolchevik and Stalinist killed people, it was crime, but when US government nuclear bombed Japanese civilians, it was war.

Umm, do you know what the difference is
Japan started it,
Japan was given it's demand to unconditional surrender
Japan refused to surrender

I blame Japan

Originally Posted by xyzde69

But you can handle to critic Marxist politicians, who wanted first to defend the working-class of terrible misery,

Hey, it was you who started this thread and get your damn facts right, working class misery if you don't want to work for billionaires , don't As for a critic of Marxist politicians, sorry I'm a critic of Marxist stupidity. Like I said, you started this thread and I'll defend our way of life.

Originally Posted by xyzde69

So what is your opinion about the Bush Sr and Bush Jr wars, the French and American wars in Vietnam, etc... ?

Think ya cornered me don't ya wrong I think of those wars exactly the same as you should think of the USSR in Afghanistan, all were disgusting

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

If the elites and the richs would have followed Marx's ideas, they would have shared their wealth and there would have been no conflicts. That's the only truth...

That's so simplistic it's not worth more than the following
If your grandma had a penis she could have been your grandpa

That's the only truth

You are so indoctrinated by communist propaganda it's not worth wasting our time replying except in jest

Originally Posted by xyzde69

You are quite nice. "Kill em all" was the only Stalin quote that really rocked.
All the other ones were very boring.

But in fact I'd extend my observation to "almost all the famous communists in the world".
They often wrote just one to five speeches that bring them to power and make them rich and famous and then they repeat them again and again and again in front of brainwashed apparatchiks
That's soooooo boring.

In comparison a good Marxist apologist is always good and will always produce the exact same arguments in dozens of once vibrant threads and is far more self promoting than your average Kardashian.

What more can I say

[Estreeter]

Originally Posted by Wendigo

What more can I say

I can say a lot

If I were a billionaire 20 times over, I'd share my wealth but with those who deserve it, I'll be damned if I gave it away for some equality or fairness ideas I'd rather burn it than give it away for that belief. Charities and worthwhile causes for sure would be looked after also ... Oh, and I would push the tax laws to absolute limit, I couldn't care less if my legal team charged me more than what my tax bill would have been , as long as the Government don't get to waste it I'm happy

[bowlinggreen]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

Oh dear. You mix everything.
I just mentionned the hypocrisy of the Capitalist propaganda.

• When Soljenitsyn described the Gulag his voice was pure and perfect for the Capitalist propaganda.
• When the same Soljenistsyn described the Judeo Bolchevism, his voice was wrong and distorted for the same Capitalist propaganda.

Do you understand my point now ?
How can we trust in Capitalist propaganda ?
Why suddenly all what he wrote about the Gulag would have been correct, (a form of Gospel word) , if he was wrong on the Judeo Bolchevism.

I'm trying to figure out where you get the term Judeo Bolshevism. Some of the old-guard Bolsheviks were what you would call ethnic Jews (like Trotsky), but they were actually trying knock out traditional Jewish culture and replace it with Communism. And later, under Stalin and beyond, things got a lot worse for the Jews. Stalin actually had Trotsky killed years after he fled the USSR.

Your term "Judeo-Bolshevism" sounds like an anti-Semitic conspiracy term, as though all of the Jews were in on it. They weren't.

We might as well call Hitler, who supposedly had a Jewish grandfather, a Jew, if he did.

Originally Posted by xyzde69

By the way you are a guy who wrote to use nuclear weapons on China.
It seems that killing innocent people doesn't disturb you at all.

I wouldn't actually argue for using nukes on China unless they used them first. That would open a huge can of radioactive worms.

Originally Posted by xyzde69

Before the two nuke bombs, Japanese and American governments already knew that Japan had lost the war. I quote the French sources (often taken from American sources) and then I google translated them for you.
The most interesting ones are the last comments in bold by Eisenhower himself.

Japan hadn't "lost the war", they were simply confined to their home islands at that point. Leaving the militarists in power through a cease-fire or a negotiated surrender was unacceptable because they simply would have waited a while and then started up their hostile behavior again. The whole Pacific Rim would be a very unstable place today if we would have allowed such a thing.

Given what they did at Pearl Harbor and some of their subsequent behavior, the morality cards were pretty much swept off the table by the time we had the capacity to nuke them. They made their own karma.

And even so, less Japanese died from the nukes then would have died if we had to launch a conventional invasion of the Japanese Home Islands.