Vaccinations? What do you think?

**SanteeFats** · February 8th, 2015, 07:30 PM

Okay I don't know how many know what is going on here in the US. There is a relatively sudden debate about vaccinations for young kids. Anyone else have an opinion?
I think it is a parental right to not vaccinate your kids. I also believe that they should not be allowed into a school without them unless there is a demonstrable reason for them not getting them.
The report that most of this is based on came from the UK and has not only been retracted by the publisher but proven to be wrong. Yet while small, a number of parents refuse to get their children the shots that might keep others from getting infected. Do the parents of vaccinated kids have a right to expect others to be vaccinated to protect their own kids? It is possible for the vaccinated to get the disease from some one that has the disease wither vaccinated or not.

**scoundrel** · February 8th, 2015, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SanteeFats

Okay I don't know how many know what is going on here in the US. There is a relatively sudden debate about vaccinations for young kids. Anyone else have an opinion?
I think it is a parental right to not vaccinate your kids. I also believe that they should not be allowed into a school without them unless there is a demonstrable reason for them not getting them.
The report that most of this is based on came from the UK and has not only been retracted by the publisher but proven to be wrong. Yet while small, a number of parents refuse to get their children the shots that might keep others from getting infected. Do the parents of vaccinated kids have a right to expect others to be vaccinated to protect their own kids? It is possible for the vaccinated to get the disease from some one that has the disease wither vaccinated or not.

I presume you are referring to the Measles-Mumps-Rubella (MMR) vaccine, STF?

The statistical link which Dr Andrew Wakefield proposed between MMR vaccination and autism has been disproven; it is an example of spurious correlation. Research put forward by Dr Wakefield and published in the BMA's journal, The Lancet in 1998 has been subsequently proven to have been manipulated and falsified by Dr Wakefield, who was seeking to make money by (among other things) testifying in a class action by parents of autism victims against the NHS for supplying the MMR vaccine. Dr Wakefield was struck off in 2010 for falsifying his research and is now Mr Wakefield. He is an evil man who has gravely harmed a generation of children by deceiving their parents with unfounded fears and causing them to withold from their children the MMR vaccine which might have saved their kids from a life threatening illness. Measles can and does cause brain damage and eyesight defects; it can also lead to meningitis and liver disease. In fact, not vaccinating a child is more likely to lead to autism, as a long term consequence of measles, than is vaccinating a child.

Parents should not be permitted to refuse the MMR in my opinion. They should be punished for trying to do so. The reason is that MMR reduces the risk of measles etc but does not eliminate it. It is possible for vaccinated children to catch measles, mumps or German Measles (rubella) from unvaccinated children at school. When more than 90% of children have been vaccinated, the whole population is much safer, the effect is known as "herd immunity". If your individual right to choose is putting my children in danger, I think that's a right you can't have and a thing you can't do, and by God yes, I'd punish you for doing it.

**SanteeFats** · February 8th, 2015, 08:22 PM

ah but remember Scoundrel I am in the US and we seem to march to a different drum. How is it over there?

**scoundrel** · February 8th, 2015, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SanteeFats

ah but remember Scoundrel I am in the US and we seem to march to a different drum. How is it over there?

Rugged individualism is all very well, but I sometimes think a lot of Americans are anti-social rather than individualistic. If you decide you want to drive on the other side of the road instead on on the right (in your case), should this be allowed, or should it be rigorously punished? When I was a two year old, my parents had to socialise me and teach me to respect rules when I didn't want to. One of the sayings my mother drummed into me, and sometimes using corporal punishment too, was:

Quote:

"I want" never gets!

I feel quite strongly that there is a strain of permission granted to anti-social selfishness in the name of individual rights evident in things like opposition to very basic common sense gun controls, and presumably to vaccination. I want what I want, and everybody else can sod off. In Britain, village law applies and people who behave like that soon come badly unstuck. We are small and crowded and we can't afford selfish gits elbowing us out of the way when we are all trying to get somewhere on a crowded pavement (sidewalk). Its the reason why we're non-confrontational, queue in shops, say please and thankyou. Its not because we're soft, because we're not. Its because we'd fight like rats in a cage if there were no rules of how to live close together in peace. If you were as crowded as we are, you'd have to adapt too.

**LadyLuck** · February 9th, 2015, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SanteeFats

I think it is a parental right to not vaccinate your kids. I also believe that they should not be allowed into a school without them unless there is a demonstrable reason for them not getting them.

This seems reasonable but in this overly litigious society that we live in here in the US it won't be long before the anti-vaccination crowd is suing for their child's right to an education. We cannot seem to find a middle ground when it comes to "your rights end where someone else's begin", it seems.

Having said that, we require parents to educate their children in some form or fashion be it public schools, a private school or being home schooled. Why not treat vaccinations and education in the same manner?

Quote:

Do the parents of vaccinated kids have a right to expect others to be vaccinated to protect their own kids?

I believe they do. Choosing to be vaccinated is a choice. No discrimination there.

Now... how long will it be before some entity is devised to allow children to sue their parents for not having had them vaccinated?

jumbo prawns · February 9th, 2015, 01:02 AM

I think it is a parents right, But I might have a different POV if I was the parent of a kid with leukemia or other immune suppressive disease. My kids have had every shot available, and I get a flu shot every year too.

I also think that it is a schools right to refuse students who aren't vaccinated. Lots of private schools, day-cares and preschools in America have this policy.

I just as strongly think that politicization of this issue is stupid and likely to backfire on politicians who attempt this. Mostly Christie and "Dr." Paul right now. This is a goofy position to take, since it is just anti science, anti public safety and anti common sense. Even more curious is that people how are least likely to immunize their kids are very left liberals so Paul and Christie are pandering to voters who will NEVER support them.

**DTravel** · February 9th, 2015, 03:52 AM

This actually isn't "new" here in the US. Jenny McCarthy has been spouting anti-vaccination BS for a number of years. McCarthy's claim is the "vaccination causes autism" myth that has been disproved. There was a talk show recently where the hosts had one of this school of anti-vaccination superstition adherents as a guest. After a while they asked her would she get her children vaccinated if they first received a vaccine that would with 100% efficiency and no possibility of side-effects prevent autism. Her response was a horrified emphatic "No".

As it happens, for the last several days I've been arguing this very subject with someone online. Her anti-vaccine argument is that giving children too many vaccines causes allergies to other things. Her "reasoning" for this is that allergies are on the rise among the population and that this started when wide-spread vaccination began. She can't/won't provide any citation to support this argument and can't/won't provide a estimate of how many vaccinations can be given without triggering this spontaneous allergy generation. Also that all this is somehow triggered by the preservatives used in making all vaccines.

Another part of the anti-vaccine "argument" is the claim that all these diseases that are being vaccinated against aren't all that horrible. After all no one is dieing from them now, so why do we have to keep torturing our children with all these medical procedures? The woman I was arguing with literally threw this out immediately after someone else had posted some of the statistics for some of those "non-dangerous" diseases prior to the vaccines for them being developed. They also blame the recent outbreaks of some of these diseases on illegal aliens. Seriously, its known that the recent measles Disneyland outbreak is known to have originated with a family of tourists but there is a large, vocal segment who claim it was illegal immigrants that caused it. Somehow that means that vaccinating our own population isn't necessary.

In short, none of the anti-vaccine "arguments" are based on any kind of rationality. They are all irrational superstition based on who knows what. The people believing them will literally refuse to listen to any arguments against their stance.

**tygrkhat40** · February 9th, 2015, 02:03 PM

When I was a child, I was given every vaccination possible. Hell, we were lined up in grammar school to get the MMR vaccine. In fact, we didn't get the vaccination from a needle, but an injector a lot like what they used in Star Trek.

I have no kids, so I supposedly have no dog in this fight. However, it's not just children at risk, but adults. It's been close to 40 years, maybe more, since I got any vaccination against measles, I don't know if I'm at risk. The next time I see my doctor, I'll talk to him about it.

When we talk about individual rights and the collective health of the community, I'm going to side with the collective health of the community. What bothers me about these anti-vaccine people is that they aren't your stereotypical bumpkins who are ignorant, but supposedly intelligent people who are willfully ignorant.

**Dr Pepper** · February 9th, 2015, 06:08 PM

But how do we deal with the situation? These people-by their stance- actually endanger the societies they live in-but get away with it under the blanket of 'free speech', 'freedom of choice' 'no mass medication' or whatever tag is hung on their actions. You can apparently hold this attitude and refuse to vaccinate without any personal consequences or societal sanction.
If one was to suggest that such people should be denied medical treatment there would be all sorts of objections-yet they are both free riding on the bulk of the community who do vaccinate-and benefiting from that 'herd immunity' referred to in earlier posts-whilst willfully and deliberately undermining that same herd immunity-which in my book doubles the offence....

As long as there is no public sanction against such attitudes, they will persist...

**SanteeFats** · February 9th, 2015, 08:32 PM

Dr. Pepper there are actually some repercussions starting to happen. Some doctors are now refusing to see unvaccinated kids in an effort to protect those that are too young to get the MMR. The doctors are afraid the younger kids could get infected by a carrier. I think I must applaud this action since the younger the child the higher the odds of bad things happening.
Also while not all public school systems have the same rules and regs there are many that will not allow non-vaccinated children to enroll unless there is a medical reason. Choosing not to get a shot is not considered valid.
Now there are a lot of private schools that will allow the unvaccinated in. There was a stat in my local paper and some of the private ones actually had higher numbers of unvaccinated than those with the shots. This stat table also showed most of the public schools here were at about 4%-8% non-shot.
I am sure as stated by others above that law suits will come about and the courts in the US will end up deciding.

February 8th, 2015, 07:30 PM	#1
SanteeFats Super Moderator Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Santee, Ca Posts: 60,824 Thanks: 281,841 Thanked 813,858 Times in 60,869 Posts	Vaccinations? What do you think? Okay I don't know how many know what is going on here in the US. There is a relatively sudden debate about vaccinations for young kids. Anyone else have an opinion? I think it is a parental right to not vaccinate your kids. I also believe that they should not be allowed into a school without them unless there is a demonstrable reason for them not getting them. The report that most of this is based on came from the UK and has not only been retracted by the publisher but proven to be wrong. Yet while small, a number of parents refuse to get their children the shots that might keep others from getting infected. Do the parents of vaccinated kids have a right to expect others to be vaccinated to protect their own kids? It is possible for the vaccinated to get the disease from some one that has the disease wither vaccinated or not.

February 9th, 2015, 03:52 AM	#7
DTravel Lean Mean Screencap Machine Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Better you don't know. Posts: 23,807 Thanks: 10,480 Thanked 207,340 Times in 23,716 Posts	This actually isn't "new" here in the US. Jenny McCarthy has been spouting anti-vaccination BS for a number of years. McCarthy's claim is the "vaccination causes autism" myth that has been disproved. There was a talk show recently where the hosts had one of this school of anti-vaccination superstition adherents as a guest. After a while they asked her would she get her children vaccinated if they first received a vaccine that would with 100% efficiency and no possibility of side-effects prevent autism. Her response was a horrified emphatic "No". As it happens, for the last several days I've been arguing this very subject with someone online. Her anti-vaccine argument is that giving children too many vaccines causes allergies to other things. Her "reasoning" for this is that allergies are on the rise among the population and that this started when wide-spread vaccination began. She can't/won't provide any citation to support this argument and can't/won't provide a estimate of how many vaccinations can be given without triggering this spontaneous allergy generation. Also that all this is somehow triggered by the preservatives used in making all vaccines. Another part of the anti-vaccine "argument" is the claim that all these diseases that are being vaccinated against aren't all that horrible. After all no one is dieing from them now, so why do we have to keep torturing our children with all these medical procedures? The woman I was arguing with literally threw this out immediately after someone else had posted some of the statistics for some of those "non-dangerous" diseases prior to the vaccines for them being developed. They also blame the recent outbreaks of some of these diseases on illegal aliens. Seriously, its known that the recent measles Disneyland outbreak is known to have originated with a family of tourists but there is a large, vocal segment who claim it was illegal immigrants that caused it. Somehow that means that vaccinating our own population isn't necessary. In short, none of the anti-vaccine "arguments" are based on any kind of rationality. They are all irrational superstition based on who knows what. The people believing them will literally refuse to listen to any arguments against their stance. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. I rage and weep for my country. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. I can reup screencaps, other material might have been lost.

February 9th, 2015, 02:03 PM	#8
tygrkhat40 Long Suffering Bills Fan Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: The City of Good Neighbors Posts: 9,669 Thanks: 304,243 Thanked 152,528 Times in 9,629 Posts	When I was a child, I was given every vaccination possible. Hell, we were lined up in grammar school to get the MMR vaccine. In fact, we didn't get the vaccination from a needle, but an injector a lot like what they used in Star Trek. I have no kids, so I supposedly have no dog in this fight. However, it's not just children at risk, but adults. It's been close to 40 years, maybe more, since I got any vaccination against measles, I don't know if I'm at risk. The next time I see my doctor, I'll talk to him about it. When we talk about individual rights and the collective health of the community, I'm going to side with the collective health of the community. What bothers me about these anti-vaccine people is that they aren't your stereotypical bumpkins who are ignorant, but supposedly intelligent people who are willfully ignorant. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

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February 8th, 2015, 08:22 PM	#3
SanteeFats Super Moderator Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Santee, Ca Posts: 60,824 Thanks: 281,841 Thanked 813,858 Times in 60,869 Posts	ah but remember Scoundrel I am in the US and we seem to march to a different drum. How is it over there?

February 9th, 2015, 01:02 AM	#6
jumbo prawns Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 283 Thanks: 225 Thanked 1,749 Times in 275 Posts	I think it is a parents right, But I might have a different POV if I was the parent of a kid with leukemia or other immune suppressive disease. My kids have had every shot available, and I get a flu shot every year too. I also think that it is a schools right to refuse students who aren't vaccinated. Lots of private schools, day-cares and preschools in America have this policy. I just as strongly think that politicization of this issue is stupid and likely to backfire on politicians who attempt this. Mostly Christie and "Dr." Paul right now. This is a goofy position to take, since it is just anti science, anti public safety and anti common sense. Even more curious is that people how are least likely to immunize their kids are very left liberals so Paul and Christie are pandering to voters who will NEVER support them.

February 9th, 2015, 06:08 PM	#9
Dr Pepper Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: NZ Posts: 4,036 Thanks: 70,724 Thanked 40,941 Times in 4,026 Posts	But how do we deal with the situation? These people-by their stance- actually endanger the societies they live in-but get away with it under the blanket of 'free speech', 'freedom of choice' 'no mass medication' or whatever tag is hung on their actions. You can apparently hold this attitude and refuse to vaccinate without any personal consequences or societal sanction. If one was to suggest that such people should be denied medical treatment there would be all sorts of objections-yet they are both free riding on the bulk of the community who do vaccinate-and benefiting from that 'herd immunity' referred to in earlier posts-whilst willfully and deliberately undermining that same herd immunity-which in my book doubles the offence.... As long as there is no public sanction against such attitudes, they will persist...

February 9th, 2015, 08:32 PM	#10
SanteeFats Super Moderator Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Santee, Ca Posts: 60,824 Thanks: 281,841 Thanked 813,858 Times in 60,869 Posts	Dr. Pepper there are actually some repercussions starting to happen. Some doctors are now refusing to see unvaccinated kids in an effort to protect those that are too young to get the MMR. The doctors are afraid the younger kids could get infected by a carrier. I think I must applaud this action since the younger the child the higher the odds of bad things happening. Also while not all public school systems have the same rules and regs there are many that will not allow non-vaccinated children to enroll unless there is a medical reason. Choosing not to get a shot is not considered valid. Now there are a lot of private schools that will allow the unvaccinated in. There was a stat in my local paper and some of the private ones actually had higher numbers of unvaccinated than those with the shots. This stat table also showed most of the public schools here were at about 4%-8% non-shot. I am sure as stated by others above that law suits will come about and the courts in the US will end up deciding.