Current Politics in the United Kingdom

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by vinceprince

IMO the most likely situation is that she can't get her White Paper through Parliament due to Eurosceptics and Labour/LD/SNP voting against it, that may result in a stalemate in Parliament and she could resign as leader or even be forced to call an election to resolve it.

Having seen the outline of her Brexit plan I would agree. A general election is needed.

I speak only for myself of course, but leaving the EU makes sense to me only on the basis that we really leave. If we are going to carry on obeying the EU rules and having no say in our own laws and regulations, then why leave? Mrs May has long since forgotten that no deal is better than a bad deal and is now promoting a very bad deal merely because she might be able to get it past Parliament; although if she thinks her proposed deal will get past Mr Barnier and the EU, she is having a laugh. They would have much more respect for a genuine hard Brexit proposal, as long as it is genuine and has integrity.

I very much want this separation to take effect - a true separation. Britain should govern herself as she always has. But unless a true separation is on offer, it is a huge amount of dislocation for precious little reward. I have considered the bullet points of Mrs May's Brexit plan and IMHO the cost-benefit equation doesn't work. I can see nothing in it for Britain except a much more shit parallel version of what we have now; a sort of zombie EU membership.

It is however very naive that people in the UK imagine that the EU would take us back. If standing in their shoes, I'm damned if I would. We have been incredibly disobliging and have shown ourselves deeply averse to their "project", I opine we have nailed our colours to the mast and we should act on this basis. We should come to these trade talks as a third party seeking mutually beneficial arrangements, but not wanting or expecting club membership - after all, we already know from over 40 years of membership what the club membership dues are; and that's why we voted to leave.

[bubbs999]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

not wanting or expecting club membership - after all, we already know from over 40 years of membership what the club membership dues are; and that's why we voted to leave.

hear hear


What he said

[Mal Hombre]

Is everybody as confident about burning Our bridges with the EU and throwing Ourselves on the tender mercies of Donald J Trump as I am ?

[Wendigo]

We will only be put in a position where we may burn our bridges if the EU refuses to give any ground. If that happens then we should wait no longer and part company very quickly.
If the EU want us to continue to pay then it is unrealistic for us to expect nothing in return. We have the whole world to trade with not just Trump, we have seen with all his pissing around with trade tariffs threats recently that despite all his big talk he hasn't a sodding clue.

Enjoy your weekend break in Scotland Donny and give my regards to Wee Jimmie Krankie.

[bubbs999]

Originally Posted by Mal Hombre

Is everybody as confident about burning Our bridges with the EU and throwing Ourselves on the tender mercies of Donald J Trump as I am ?

To me, it's not really about relying on a fickle twat like Trump - or hoping that the Magmaninous EU beaurocrats will agree to us picking what we want to keep of their policies..

I am neither racist, nor belligerant, but I believe British laws, sovreignties, taxes, tarrifs, quotas et al, should be decided by the British Parliament.

We should be masters of our own destiny, whatever that may be.

If we, as a country are worse off initially, then it is up to ourselves to make our lot better - and if we need to elect different officials to achieve this, then so be it.

I would rather be free, independant and poor than be comfortable, but at the whim and control of foreign officials who have their own agendas. Joining other countries in deals on trade is one thing ; when was it decided to let foreign countries write our laws ?

Our ancestors fought long and hard for our freedom - we should not have given that freedom away so quietly and timidly.

With your last breath, roar like a lion. Do not meet your end in a whimper.

GOD SAVE THE QUEEN

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by Mal Hombre

Is everybody as confident about burning Our bridges with the EU and throwing Ourselves on the tender mercies of Donald J Trump as I am ?

Trump is like a fart in a confined space. He will last longer than we would like, but he will dissipate in the end. Also, although trade with the USA is extremely important, it is not the only important question.

For example -

What is the long range forecast for the EU itself? It faces serious challenges and IMHO will not survive unless it adapts. The Schengen Agreement is a trojan horse allowing free movement across borders for illegal migrants and of course terrorists and assorted criminals. The single currency is causing economic imbalances which lead in turn to a kind of evil arbitrage, as Germany with her expensive workforce imports jobs and exports artificially low-priced goods and services; and the Meditarannean members export money, jobs and millions of their brightest and best young citizens. This is before we look at the standard of governance.

[vinceprince]

Originally Posted by bubbs999

when was it decided to let foreign countries write our laws ?

It was decided and passed by your great sovereign Parliament by passing Treaties.

This was party policy of all of the Parties (all except UKIP recently) that you almost certainly voted for at various times since 1972. That's British Democracy for you.

Rules on trade on goods with EU will still be decided by foreigners (EU) it's just we won't have any input on them any longer.

[bubbs999]

Originally Posted by vinceprince

It was decided and passed by your great sovereign Parliament by passing Treaties.
This was party policy of all of the Parties (all except UKIP recently) that you almost certainly voted for at various times since 1972. That's British Democracy for you.
Rules on trade on goods with EU will still be decided by foreigners (EU) it's just we won't have any input on them any longer.

I vote for governments to do just that - TO GOVERN - not to relinquish that responsibilty and hand it to outside parties. That's not democracy... that my friend is what I call TREASON - they used to hang people for that.

Rules on trade can be decided between EU countries, but if they put 10% tariff on say, Olive Oil, then we should put 12% on Cheddar Cheese. We import much more from the European Countries than we export. Do the likes of BMW, AUDI/VW, MERCEDES, CITROEN, PEUGOT & FIAT want to loose brirish car sales ? We can still buy Honda, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Kia, Hyundai, etc without touching European markets. (They happen to be more reliable too )

[laberbacke]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

after all, we already know from over 40 years of membership what the club membership dues are; and that's why we voted to leave.

National politicians love to abuse Brussels as a punching bag for their own bad policies, yet no new EU law or regulation is passed without British approval - or German, or French approval. It is these major economies in the union that fill the EU's purse and they know how to use that power (as well as their legally enshrined veto powers) to stop EU projects or regulations they don't like. As an example, the Merkel administration recently vetoed a EU plan for stricter exhaust emissions regulations that every other EU member had agreed on, because it threatened the business interests of German car manufacturers.


Whatever EU regulations Britons don't like, were passed with the prime minister's and the British EU commissioner's blessing.


Britain's principal structural problems have nothing to do with the EU, and will not be affected positively with Brexit, regardless of the minutiae of whatever deal will be made. The main reason why Germany balances its budget (the last time the UK managed that was in 2001) and has brought down the public debt by 30% since the apex of the financial crisis, while Britain's debt has increased by 30% - even though it pays considerably less into the EU than Germany - is that Germany isn't nearly as dependant on its financial sector as the UK and thus isn't affected as negatively by the bankster's frequent fuckups. Because Germany didn't destroy its manufacturing industry like the UK did during Thatcher's war on unions in the 80ies.


What great, innovative products will Britain offer the world after Brexit, once the banks have moved to Paris and Frankfurt? Superior products only Britain can offer? There's neither a British BMW or Airbus (which will likely scrap its British plants after a hard Brexit), nor a British Facebook or Google. How will a small country with an economy smaller than California's make more favorable trade deals with the United States and China and their aggressive, nationalistic leaders than it could as an integral part of the 20 trillion dollar economic region that is the EU?

[vinceprince]

Originally Posted by bubbs999

I vote for governments to do just that - TO GOVERN - not to relinquish that responsibilty and hand it to outside parties. That's not democracy... that my friend is what I call TREASON - they used to hang people for that.

If you voted for any Gov't between 1972 and now then you democratically voted for this 'Treason' as you call it as it was their stated policy to put these Treaties into UK law.

Do you also wish to leave all interational bodies we have joined and submit to their rules and judgements of their courts/tribunals. WTO/ECHR/UN etc

Membership of any international organisation means the UK government voluntarily shares sovereignty in the crucial spheres of economic, defence and foreign policy.

If you think your view have not been represented in the UK democratic system then it is the UK Democracy/Constitution that is the problem and needs to change. I disagree with UKIP and Farage on the EU but agree with their view on the need for PR in the UK.