Atheist, are you one??

[befuddled]

Originally Posted by howerd

Yet again you conveniently ignore this line:

"34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. "

How stupid is that advice?!

As one who once sincerely sought to do all that Jesus says for Christians to do, I can tell you that it is very, very stupid advice. Most Christians wisely avoid doing much of what Jesus tells them to do. They know it's flat nuts. So they don't do it, but, then, that's not really faith, not really being a Christian, is it.

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by befuddled

As one who once sincerely sought to do all that Jesus says for Christians to do, I can tell you that it is very, very stupid advice. Most Christians wisely avoid doing much of what Jesus tells them to do. They know it's flat nuts. So they don't do it, but, then, that's not really faith, not really being a Christian, is it.

You think that's a stupid advice, because you are not a real Christian.
A real Christian doesn't fear to die, dying is fantastic for a Christian, he will be in paradise with God during eternity.

You simply didn't understand this advice, only because you are not a spiritual people enough.

One of my colleagues (who has a degree of lawyer) believes very strong in God. (Once he told me that he went to the church to pray for my mother when she was dying of cancer. I was extremely surprised. I never prayed for my mother myself.) We both were in the car speaking together and he told me: "You can't imagine how I do not fear to die, because I know that in afterlife it will be far better than now."

I asked him: "How can you tell that? You don't get any proofs of that"
He replied: "Because sometimes I feel the holy spirit in me."

He's a nice guy, but he's sure that aliens do not exist in the universe. We are unique.

So how can you debate with people like him ?

[Sir Honkers]

With the 50th anniversary of the moon landing, I've been reading a lot about the existential crises that a number of astronauts went through. Enough to lead me to think that whoever it was that said 'there are no atheists in foxholes' knew of what he spoke. Belief in something greater or at least a hope that there is something greater in a time of personal upheaval, seems to be hotwired into our brains.
This thread's interesting in terms of listening to the many and varied viewpoints people have, but no one's going to have their mind changed.

Originally Posted by Roubignol

You think that's a stupid advice, because you are not a real Christian.
A real Christian doesn't fear to die, dying is fantastic for a Christian, he will be in paradise with God during eternity.

You simply didn't understand this advice, only because you are not a spiritual people enough.

One of my colleagues (who has a degree of lawyer) believes very strong in God. (Once he told me that he went to the church to pray for my mother when she was dying of cancer. I was extremely surprised. I never prayed for my mother myself.) We both were in the car speaking together and he told me: "You can't imagine how I do not fear to die, because I know that in afterlife it will be far better than now."

I asked him: "How can you tell that? You don't get any proofs of that"
He replied: "Because sometimes I feel the holy spirit in me."

He's a nice guy, but he's sure that aliens do not exist in the universe. We are unique.

So how can you debate with people like him ?

Ruby I think just it's down to looking at the world from a different aspect. And if you're both decent people who try to live without doing too much harm, why bother. Because you want him to accept your truth?

[howerd]

Originally Posted by Roubignol

I already reply to your question. Come back several pages.

Sure but it was an inadequate reply because paying no mind for the morrow is terrible advice! Okay you may not think so but none the less under present circumstances with climate change & species depletion too it clearly is terrible advice! In fact it's about as bad as it can get!

Originally Posted by Roubignol

IMHO, game is over, because humanity didn't follow 34th advice in the past.

But it was bad advice then & today it's really terrible advice!

Originally Posted by Roubignol

Our ancestors were too much preoccupied by the morrow instead to live a real simple life.

So it would have been better for them to not bother stockpiling supplies in case of a drought or crops being ravaged by locusts some time in the future yeah? Errr... no!

Originally Posted by Roubignol

Our ancestors and ourselves overexploited the natural resources because of thinking too much of the morrow.

Nonsense! Once we lived in a world of plenty where the very idea of species extinction was implausible because there wasn't a massive human population competing against the natural world. Today thanks largely to religions which forbid the use of contraception human beings have taken over the entire planet! They are even hoping they can live on the moon or Mars the problem is so bad but if you'll forgive the pun 'pie in the sky'.

Originally Posted by Roubignol

What will I do on holiday?

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with wanting a holiday but burning up masses of jet fuel by millions of holiday makers all the time isn't paying much thought for the morrow seeing what the consequences will be.

Originally Posted by Roubignol

I want a big house in the future!

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with wanting a big house either but wanting lots of them as if you needed them all when other people have none isn't okay.

Originally Posted by Roubignol

I want to have several children,

One or two is fair enough but three or more only makes the over population problem even worse & having 3+ is clearly paying no mind to the morrow especially their morrow.

Originally Posted by Roubignol

a sportscar,

Yes that's unnecessary however we live in a world where for many people it's hard to manage without any car especially where public transport is inadequate.

Originally Posted by Roubignol

flying to Marbella during winter time....

Again unnecessary & is paying no mind to the morrow due to the environmental damage it causes too.

Originally Posted by Roubignol

I want, I want, I want, I fear, I hope.... bla bla bla...

Certain 'wants' are okay. Fear might sometimes be necessary however rational concern always trumps irrational fear. Hope is all well & good if there's some grounds for it but again just hoping the morrow will be okay ain't enough because you can hope all you like & that won't change a thing if that's all there is to it.

Originally Posted by Roubignol

Instead to live a simple life everyday, humanity has decided to get projects.

Projects can be good as well as bad. Here in the UK there was a project to create a free National Health Service for all. That was a project worth wanting!

Originally Posted by Roubignol

I'll repeat how I read it this sentence.
Do you want to save the morrow? Don't be preoccupied about it. Live a simple life each day. Don't run after money. ;)

Sure that's how you happened to interpret but the fact remains that the actual scripture says nothing close to that. You simply decided that it must mean that because it happens to agree with your personal philosophy however a climate change denier could do that too - & further more add nothing to what was said in the way you've added your own thoughts & the climate change denier would be closer to the original text than you are who added all that other stuff. See what I mean about faith now? It can be employed any which way you like to justify anything you decide it might mean. That's why faith is useless.

[howerd]

Originally Posted by loosegoose

With the 50th anniversary of the moon landing, I've been reading a lot about the existential crises that a number of astronauts went through.

But most if not all of them were Christians so why didn't their faith save them from any existential crisis if it's supposed to be the answer?

Originally Posted by loosegoose

Enough to lead me to think that whoever it was that said 'there are no atheists in foxholes' knew of what he spoke.

Really? But why take it on faith (especially since any baseless claim like that can be taken on faith too?) You needn't take it on faith from me that I know otherwise because I have demonstrable evidence it's not true. Christopher Hitchens was an atheist in a foxhole who spent his dying breath criticizing religion. Here's a video of him in his last days dying of cancer raging against all gods if you doubt there are any atheists in foxholes

Originally Posted by loosegoose

Belief in something greater or at least a hope that there is something greater in a time of personal upheaval, seems to be hotwired into our brains.

Sure it is. I couldn't agree more & the reasons why are entirely scientific: Our hunter gatherer ancestors had to believe there were unseen agents out in the world. If they didn't one might jump out of the undergrowth & have them for lunch! That would mean that they may not have lived long enough to have kids & pass on that trait: Hyperactive Agent Detection Device (H.A.D.D.) Having the H.A.D.D. may often have caused them to imagine agents were 'out there' when actually they weren't however that wasn't a problem because it helped the species as a whole avoid getting eaten by predators even if it did cause people to imagine gods, goblins & the like. So yes an over active imagination certainly is hotwired [did you mean hardwired?] into our brains & natural selection explains precisely why not the supernatural.

Originally Posted by loosegoose

This thread's interesting in terms of listening to the many and varied viewpoints people have, but no one's going to have their mind changed.

I disagree. People are realizing more & more that there's really no good reason to believe god claims & it's becoming an unstoppable trend in the developed world & now thankfully even in America too which has always made an industry out of religion hence it's commercial (not spiritual) success. Here's a TED video explaining why the tide is thankfully turning at long last >

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by loosegoose

Ruby I think just it's down to looking at the world from a different aspect. And if you're both decent people who try to live without doing too much harm, why bother. Because you want him to accept your truth?

I probably didn't express myself well enough in English.
I don't want my ex-colleague to accept my truth.

He became a friend. He asked me to come to his marriage and we still have contact together since he went to work in Germany.

I even think that's fantastic to have no fear like him to die, thanks to the certainty of living in a better world later.

We almost never spoke about God during the eight years we worked together.
There was no reason. He's sure that God exists. IMHO we both have no arguments to tell who is wrong, who is right... until the end of our life.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by loosegoose

...whoever it was that said 'there are no atheists in foxholes' knew of what he spoke

I've read that many times, but don't think it's true of everyone. Many people are fatalists, including me. We accept there's no sense in panicking, no sense in hoping there's a supernatural, and indeed no sense in fear -- the answer is: don't think about it, and use your brain for something life-saving

But of course, I'm still young

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by howerd

That's why faith is useless.

I agree with you. So do a wire transfer of all the money you have in your bank account to mine.

[Sir Honkers]

Originally Posted by palo5

I've read that many times, but don't think it's true of everyone. Many people are fatalists, including me. We accept there's no sense in panicking, no sense in hoping there's a supernatural, and indeed no sense in fear -- the answer is: don't think about it, and use your brain for something life-saving

But of course, I'm still young

Some years back I had an elderly neighbour who fought on the Kokoda Trail and when one of my kids asked him was he scared, he answered pretty much the same thing.

[charliels531]

Originally Posted by loosegoose

Some years back I had an elderly neighbour who fought on the Kokoda Trail and when one of my kids asked him was he scared, he answered pretty much the same thing.

Many years ago I had a client who had been at the Siege of Leningrad on the German side. We got to know each other fairly well. Well enough for me to ask him about his time there. He told me that the most important thing he had learned was to never wear wet socks, because every man he knew who wore wet socks had died.

There are lots of atheists in foxholes. They keep their socks dry.

BTW, there weren't a lot of survivors of Kokoda Trail. They were all gems. One of Australia's greatest moments.