Newtown - Is it Really Time for a Change?

[profvolup]

Originally Posted by vannax

I always thought the Swedish 6.5 was a good idea.

Yes, for the standard action where your overall length is at least 71mm, if not closer to 85mm. Now you're talking a longer cartridge of at least 48+.

So the problem for the AR-15 platform is that it's a bitch to fit a 140gr+ (9g+) 6.5mm Sweedish bullet in a short action. You really have to step up to the 7.62/AR-10 action. The Grendels are all 107 to even 123gr, so they stay at least 800mps/2600fps.

Either that, or you have, say, a Grendel 6.5 cartridge with a heavy bullet that is too long to fit in the AR-15 magazine/well, so you're single shot loading. And even if you that, you're now dropping to 700mps/2300fps or less, and now you're getting far more drop and wind push.

In other words, you're just far better off going to a .308, AR-10 length action, and then looking at some of the 6.5-7 options, including those that use those sweet, Sweedish bullets of 140gr and heavier.

Originally Posted by vannax

7.62 x 51mm NATO is sort of overkill, and if you put a few hundred through, say, an FN FAL, the gun has basically beaten the crap out of you,

The whole reason the British were screaming at the US in the late '40s and early '50s to not stick with .30 calibre. The British themselves were .30 for so long, just like the US, and had taken note of what the Germans and Russians had done.

And improved upon it best.

Originally Posted by vannax

where you could put 1000 5.56 through an AR-15 and laugh about it, not to mention the logistical and physical factors of dealing with light vs heavy ammo, but the AR-15 is seriously underpowered for a combat weapon.

Especially in the M-4 short barrel, it doesn't even burn all the propellant.

Originally Posted by vannax

I think the 6.5mm is a good happy medium.

The US Army is looking at the 6.5-6.8mm for the plastic, telescoped cartridge. But inertia is a bitch.

The irony here is that the US Army actually developed the Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW) with a 6mm (including a longer, steel cartridge instead of brass) and, at the time, was going to see about changing out the M16 platform to accommodate. But it never happened, and the M249 became 5.56.

I don't think we'll ever get away from the 9.6mm bolt-face and short-action as a result.

Hence the .300 AAC BLK for CQC and 150m engagements. This is the primary engagement of the US Army now. Under 150m and over 800m. Again, I see a future of the .338 Norma and, over time, the .300 AAC BLK.

Now the .300 (7.62) AAC would be semi-effective for mowing down civilians, far more than the .223/5.56. Of course, only the military can buy those, and especially in a short 10-12" carbine barrel. The longer, civilian barrel limits its effectivenss for home defense, although at least the subsonic rounds won't require hearing protection.

[profvolup]

Originally Posted by diamelsx

Fuck that, last thing I shot was the light gun on Nintendo playing Duck Hunt...

And I appreciate people admitting such. It's okay not to know about firearms.

Just don't let the media dupe you into stating physics that just doesn't exist or doesn't make sense.

I used to question the 2nd Amendment when I was very young, like most people. This was because the Brady Foundation started out as a good organization, and made promises to the ACLU. Unfortunately the anti-Glock, anti-plastic gun people took over, and the Brady Foundation pretty much got away from science. Since then the ACLU has some of the nastiest things to say about the Brady Foundation.

Me, being stupid, studied engineering, and then ... well, started recognizing what was wrong with the increasing number of arguments.

Although if you want to look bad, even the Brady Foundation distances themselves from some of what Bloomberg's Anytown does. I literally have to remove my brain when reading their stuff. They really try to pry upon people know remembering really basic, junior high physical science.

It would be one thing if what they are arguing made sense, reduced violence and increased safety. But no, they are trying to do one thing ... make the laws so convoluted, exercising the 2nd Amendment is no longer an option.

That's what upsets me. And that's what's upsetting the courts at times. The courts don't like to get involved, until citizens can prove they have no right to exercise the 2nd Amendment. Then the state has to prove it's for a 'public good,' and they fail to do that.

Happened in DC. Starting to happen in New York, with their own, state Supreme Court.

The 'no fly, no buy' isn't even the argument any more. The federal watch lists are more than just fly lists, but the terrorist watch list is massive. It's become a 'turn in your neighbor' list, and the right to buying a gun is the last thing you have to worry about.

[vannax]

Originally Posted by profvolup

I generally agree with you, but it depends on the 'qualification.' Some qualifications at 460m/500yds is only 1 out of 3 or 4. And they have a sub-5kph/3mph wind.

In any case, that's with the 510mm/20" M-16. Anyone who says 370mm/14.5" M-4 must be joking. And in any case, the energy is pathetic at that range.

Part of the reason the Germans stuck with 7.92mm, the Russians stuck with 7.62, and the British argued with us Americans to go .280. Heck, even Pederson pushed the .276, and the M1 Granddaddy Garand was originally designed for it.

The funny thing is that the US Army has a nasty habit of pushing the wrong thing, and then going far too opposite. Temporarily adopting anything the USAF does is not a good move.

In any case, we're getting way, way off-topic.

We have too many members claiming a lot of BS about the AR-15 platform and its cartridge -- whether long or short range. If the .300 AAC BLK ever becomes very common, then the AR-15 becomes significantly more deadly for 150m and closer. Then it would be far more effective at killing civilians in hallways and across large rooms.

Not nearly as good as many pistol rounds, but a crapload better than the .223/NATO 5.56.

But a semi-auto MSR is still not a selective fire AR-15. The former is still a 4-6 rounds per 8-10 seconds, not a 4-6 rounds per second weapon.

But you cannot prove that to US media sheep ... without actually going out to the range and showing them the difference. They think a semi-auto MSR is what the US military issues, and what they see in the movies.

The Russians in WW2 were pretty deadly at urban warfare with their PPSh 41's, despite the occasional broken finger from reloading.
As far as the AR-15's are concerned, well, they're not great for hunting, not great for combat, but they are fun to shoot, mind you, I've never handled the select-fire versions, just the semi-auto.
I always wondered why the US/NATO went with the 5.56, instead of say, developing a hard-shouldered and rimless variant of the 30-30.
I agree that pistol rounds are much more dangerous in the hands of a madman, pretty much anything that gets hit anywhere with a .45 ACP is dead, on the other hand, 15 rounds in an HP 35 vs 7 in a 1911 can make quite a difference as well.
Tell me, what are your thought on bull-pup style weapons? I believe that the Brits currently use them, and I think the American SS does as well. I've only heard good things about them, but I have never seen one in action.

[profvolup]

Originally Posted by vannax

The Russians in WW2 were pretty deadly at urban warfare with their PPSh 41's, despite the occasional broken finger from reloading.

Back when soldiers didn't wear body armor, yes. The Chinese had quite a number of SMGs in Korea too. The Tommy and Grease Guns, the Sten, etc... No argument.

They are combat max-effect for mowing down people with just clothes on. That's why we outlawed them from civilian ownership here in the US way back in 1934.

Originally Posted by vannax

As far as the AR-15's are concerned, well, they're not great for hunting,

Not deer, no. But just fine for varmits.

Originally Posted by vannax

not great for combat,

Deer ~ human, agreed. You need at least a .243 (6mm) to be 'humane,' at a minimum, and that's not always the agreed minimum either.

Originally Posted by vannax

but they are fun to shoot, mind you,

Kids start with the .22LR at Project Appleseed. Heck, and much against the protest of the Swedes and their 6.5mm, the .22LR, even the .17, have moved into competitive shooting over the last 30 years. The .22LR has become the universal default.

Kinda like Porsche is for spec racing, or getting more to the 'guts,' GM LS engines. Having a heavy, mechanical engineering background, guns and cars tend to get my analogies.

But the next 'upgrade' for kids is the .222/5.56. In the 510mm/20" barrel, it's hard to fine a more accurate rifle out to 300m for such little energy and, correspondingy, recoil. That's why the ignorant laugh when we say a MSR ("AR-15") is ideal for young teenagers. It is. It literally is. It's a crapload easier than a shotgun! Even the little .410 is a bitch, in comparison.

Originally Posted by vannax

I've never handled the select-fire versions, just the semi-auto.

I've never shot either myself, only helped design some accessories with others, but watched plenty. No, I don't like to shoot guns, and own none. Don't want the responsibility. I know how to disassemble them though.

I love it when journalists, who some of my clients get from time-to-time, and they join us. In most cases, it's the first or second time out to a real range, where you have stamped weapons and operator-owners, not just civilians. We showcase the fully automatic AR-15 platforms, and they get really prideful, like they knew everything about it. Then we shoot a MSR, and in one case -- I kid you not -- he was like, "Can you put it on full auto?"

Gets a huge laugh every time. He honestly didn't realize MSRs and legal ownership doesn't allow that. Everything has to be stamped, trusted, etc... and none of those weapons are ever used in crimes.

Originally Posted by vannax

I always wondered why the US/NATO went with the 5.56, instead of say, developing a hard-shouldered and rimless variant of the 30-30.

I laid it out in my prior posts. USAF survival round, then AR-15 (and short Carbine version) adoption as a base security/personal defense weapon by the USAF.

The US Army's issues in Vietnam with the M14 wood stocks and hand guards warping resulted in them looking at alternative platforms. Everyone from Green Berets, who aren't dealing with US logistics (pushing small arms, whatever, to locals), to the Project Agile, and the 'temporary' adoption of the AR-15, since the USAF had already done all the work. And that's when the US Army woke up to how different the requirements were, let alone they were using their weapons far, far more heavily than the USAF.

Just ask anyone in the USAF how little they actually qualify, compared to the US Army. I mean, we're talking practice and qualification with under 100 rounds, versus over 1,000 total, in many cases. 100 rounds were not enough to expose the issues, much less they were at paper targets. 1,000 rounds tested the first powder choice, as well as the system as a whole, especially once it went to combat.

Originally Posted by vannax

I agree that pistol rounds are much more dangerous in the hands of a madman, pretty much anything that gets hit anywhere with a .45 ACP is dead, on the other hand, 15 rounds in an HP 35 vs 7 in a 1911 can make quite a difference as well.

The sad thing is ...

There are a lot of public releases of the Newtown events. The lessons are all there. If you stand and point any weapon right at a kid, and unload 10-15 rounds over 20 seconds, directly into his brain, he's dead. If you get 10-15 minutes, you can do that to 30-45 kids.

There will never be another Newtown, at least not when the police and school districts have a say. They will never, ever let it go down like that again.

Orlando is still being compiled. But from what we know, the police pulled out because the shooter stopped firing. There's good evidence to suggest the police were firing blindly, and even after the shooter stopped, and they had full automatic AR-15s. We'll never probably know how many rounds were fired by who, but the OPD has already admitted they killed some of the civilians.

The key is that you must rush and see the shooter.

In Newtown, he was a minimally trained, troubled, young adult who had only firearm familiarity, not tactics. He was left alone to do whatever damage he wanted. He could have been taken out.

In Orlando, he was a well trained security guard, even wanted to be a cop, and had been contracted to DHS itself. He knew how to use angles, cover, and keep the OPD first responders from being able to see him. He was also able to walk up to the club, with his Sig Sauer MCX, in a state where open carry is illegal. Think about that. He was so trusted by people around, that he wasn't questioned ... sans for one, off-duty cop, but it was too late by then.

In the US, we have to take violence drills as serious as fire drills. We have to train key people to respond, both in how to get people to safety to minimize casualties, as well as ensure someone challenges the shooter before they are able to get in a far better, more tactically advantageous position, especially if they knew what they were doing, like the Orlando shooter, just like we have hall monitors with fires.

Police have been saying this for years, and after Newtown was the first time many school districts gave their finger to the politicians, and ask the police and others for help.

Originally Posted by vannax

Tell me, what are your thought on bull-pup style weapons?

Civilian shooters love a crisp trigger pull, which most bullpups suck at. So civilians don't like bullpups, unlike militaries.

Only Keltec has introduced a spring system that gives one, and it's adjustable, 2-6lbs (1~3kg) pull. I won't say more about Keltec, because people complain about them for other reasons. Most of it has to do with the fact that they have so many federal/state orders, civilians are backordered. But they've over quadrupled their CnC machine count over the last 5 years

That said, even the French are giving up their FAMAS "bugle" and going to an AR-15 compatible platform. Several are also following suit. Bullpups are on the way out. Even the Chinese have pretty dropped theirs altogether for both the 5.8x42 cartridge, and any 7.62x39 developments.

The irony here is that the original, the '70s Steyr AUG, is still one of the best, bullpup designs. The Israeli Tavor is overrated. I utterly agree whole heartedly with The Firearm Blog on this. They literally don't hold back on that one, and they are dead-on.

Bullpups with the 5.56 attempt to solve the barrel length requirement, but the round sucks any way, so not much you can do. Now a bullpup in a 6.5 or .308, now that might be something. But still probably not for a selective fire 'assault rifle,' only a MSR. So, from a military standpoint, they aren't really liking it.

But don't tell that to the Austrians.

Originally Posted by vannax

I believe that the Brits currently use them,

The SA80 series has a checkered history. Basically they developed the EM-1/EM-2 to shoot the .280, and then had to change wholesale to the NATO 7.62 because of us Americans.

So when the US pushed the 5.56 almost a quarter century later, after realizing the .280 wasn't going to be considered, they actually revised it to use a new, sub-5mm cartridge, which was novel and actually more effective, and built the SA80 around it. I have to give the British credit, they take American requirements, improve upon them, then bring them back, showing us Americans something better, and we basically smack them without merit.

So ... the SA80 is basically a great gun designed for a different cartridge, so it sucked with the 5.56 due to gas and other differences. Ironically with the whole 9/11 thing, then Iraq, they finally fixed it in the A2 variant, and it's pretty darn good now.

Originally Posted by vannax

and I think the American SS does as well.

All sorts of various, American entities use all sorts of weapons ... federal, state, local. Remember, it's a huge country, with a population on the order of the EU as a whole, right down to natural gas and petroleum usage as well. The US + EU account for nearly half of the world's energy consumption, about half each, similarly per-capita.

So ... here in the US, the larger the federal contracts -- just like if there was a "single gun" for all the US -- the less 2nd Amendment and NRA support. They have big federal buy-in, so also state and local contracts, especially post-9/11 with DHS feeding so much downstream, even APCs.

Smith & Wesson is #1, and utterly doesn't say shit.
Magpul is the smallest, but most innovative, and that retired Marine spouts his mouth with regularity.

As Bernie Sanders, to his credit, constantly points out, there is little money in civilian firearms. The end of gun manufacturing in the US will come if the lawsuits start again. Even large companies cannot handle it. The lawyer costs is why one mid-major gun company settled on the appeal, even though it won the first round.

It doesn't matter if there is a case. The lawsuit will totally destroy the company in just lawyers fees either before it gets to trial (small company), or by the first (mid) or second (large) appeal, no matter how many times the gun manufacturer wins. The NRA is built on mom'n pop members, especially small gunsmiths who do it for the love of the mechanics.

So, a gun companies best bet is to come up with a bolt or semi-auto design for civilians that is so good, the federal, state and many local law enforcement agencies also buy it. That way the get mass volume and reduced costs, economies of scale with guaranteed revenue.

That said ...

I'm sure the Orlando shooter's choice of the MCX has a lot to do with exposure to Sig's short stroke gas system. If he was providing select security for US federal agencies and other entities, he probably was already familiar with much of the operating mechanisms. So the MCX was an obvious choice, if that was the case.

As always, most threats are insider. It's not random civilians.

Even the San Bernardino couple knew people. It wasn't just getting the weapons, but getting them modified. It's not profiling when people originate from countries with high rates of violence. Especially in the case where they are guilty of Visa overstays and failure to file proper paperwork, because they now they'll likely get turned down, and find other ways to legitimately stay. Marriage or other solutions are often used.

This is what DHS has been complaining to State for a long time. Anyone who purposely avoids things, and finds ways to game the system, are prime targets for further scrutiny. Same goes for those who are contractors at US federal and other installations.

Random civilians are rarely the problem. This includes people who follow Visa and Green Card steps legitimately. Nothing pisses me the fuck off when my colleagues are scrutinized, and they are absolutely legal residents. They get shit from the US government, constantly, no help ... but if they would just avoid such, they'd get through much easier. Beg for forgiveness instead of asking is how people get into the US, sadly enough.

Although their kids, if they travel internationally to the same countries of origin with the documented State issues, should be given additional scrutiny when they return. But ultimately, it's the families who have to be willing to turn in their own family. That's a tall order for a mom and dad. Radicalization is a real issue, happens rarely, but it's still an order of magnitude more likely in their cases, based on their origins.

Just like that statistic the media put up about those of Islamic faith not being the largest case of domestic terrorism. It's a true statistic ... until you look at percentages, and rates. Then it's 12x higher, because the demographic is 16x smaller. Hence why that 40-something percent looks really bad, when it's a single percentage digital of the the country.

Originally Posted by vannax

I've only heard good things about them, but I have never seen one in action.

If you every shoot one, you'll think they suck. The trigger sucks on them. It feels like a toy, with no feel. Sans the newer Keltec design, of course.

[SanteeFats]

I hate too break up this discussion between you two (not really or I wouldn't do it ) but this is not really a thread about ammo and weapons it is about gun control and such. If you want to carry this ammo discussion on please start a thread for it. Thank you.

[vannax]

Originally Posted by profvolup

Back when soldiers didn't wear body armor, yes. The Chinese had quite a number of SMGs in Korea too. The Tommy and Grease Guns, the Sten, etc... No argument.

They are combat max-effect for mowing down people with just clothes on. That's why we outlawed them from civilian ownership here in the US way back in 1934.

Not deer, no. But just fine for varmits.

Deer ~ human, agreed. You need at least a .243 (6mm) to be 'humane,' at a minimum, and that's not always the agreed minimum either.

Kids start with the .22LR at Project Appleseed. Heck, and much against the protest of the Swedes and their 6.5mm, the .22LR, even the .17, have moved into competitive shooting over the last 30 years. The .22LR has become the universal default.

Kinda like Porsche is for spec racing, or getting more to the 'guts,' GM LS engines. Having a heavy, mechanical engineering background, guns and cars tend to get my analogies.

But the next 'upgrade' for kids is the .222/5.56. In the 510mm/20" barrel, it's hard to fine a more accurate rifle out to 300m for such little energy and, correspondingy, recoil. That's why the ignorant laugh when we say a MSR ("AR-15") is ideal for young teenagers. It is. It literally is. It's a crapload easier than a shotgun! Even the little .410 is a bitch, in comparison.

I've never shot either myself, only helped design some accessories with others, but watched plenty. No, I don't like to shoot guns, and own none. Don't want the responsibility. I know how to disassemble them though.

I love it when journalists, who some of my clients get from time-to-time, and they join us. In most cases, it's the first or second time out to a real range, where you have stamped weapons and operator-owners, not just civilians. We showcase the fully automatic AR-15 platforms, and they get really prideful, like they knew everything about it. Then we shoot a MSR, and in one case -- I kid you not -- he was like, "Can you put it on full auto?"

Gets a huge laugh every time. He honestly didn't realize MSRs and legal ownership doesn't allow that. Everything has to be stamped, trusted, etc... and none of those weapons are ever used in crimes.

I laid it out in my prior posts. USAF survival round, then AR-15 (and short Carbine version) adoption as a base security/personal defense weapon by the USAF.

The US Army's issues in Vietnam with the M14 wood stocks and hand guards warping resulted in them looking at alternative platforms. Everyone from Green Berets, who aren't dealing with US logistics (pushing small arms, whatever, to locals), to the Project Agile, and the 'temporary' adoption of the AR-15, since the USAF had already done all the work. And that's when the US Army woke up to how different the requirements were, let alone they were using their weapons far, far more heavily than the USAF.

Just ask anyone in the USAF how little they actually qualify, compared to the US Army. I mean, we're talking practice and qualification with under 100 rounds, versus over 1,000 total, in many cases. 100 rounds were not enough to expose the issues, much less they were at paper targets. 1,000 rounds tested the first powder choice, as well as the system as a whole, especially once it went to combat.

The sad thing is ...

There are a lot of public releases of the Newtown events. The lessons are all there. If you stand and point any weapon right at a kid, and unload 10-15 rounds over 20 seconds, directly into his brain, he's dead. If you get 10-15 minutes, you can do that to 30-45 kids.

There will never be another Newtown, at least not when the police and school districts have a say. They will never, ever let it go down like that again.

Orlando is still being compiled. But from what we know, the police pulled out because the shooter stopped firing. There's good evidence to suggest the police were firing blindly, and even after the shooter stopped, and they had full automatic AR-15s. We'll never probably know how many rounds were fired by who, but the OPD has already admitted they killed some of the civilians.

The key is that you must rush and see the shooter.

In Newtown, he was a minimally trained, troubled, young adult who had only firearm familiarity, not tactics. He was left alone to do whatever damage he wanted. He could have been taken out.

In Orlando, he was a well trained security guard, even wanted to be a cop, and had been contracted to DHS itself. He knew how to use angles, cover, and keep the OPD first responders from being able to see him. He was also able to walk up to the club, with his Sig Sauer MCX, in a state where open carry is illegal. Think about that. He was so trusted by people around, that he wasn't questioned ... sans for one, off-duty cop, but it was too late by then.

In the US, we have to take violence drills as serious as fire drills. We have to train key people to respond, both in how to get people to safety to minimize casualties, as well as ensure someone challenges the shooter before they are able to get in a far better, more tactically advantageous position, especially if they knew what they were doing, like the Orlando shooter, just like we have hall monitors with fires.

Police have been saying this for years, and after Newtown was the first time many school districts gave their finger to the politicians, and ask the police and others for help.

Civilian shooters love a crisp trigger pull, which most bullpups suck at. So civilians don't like bullpups, unlike militaries.

Only Keltec has introduced a spring system that gives one, and it's adjustable, 2-6lbs (1~3kg) pull. I won't say more about Keltec, because people complain about them for other reasons. Most of it has to do with the fact that they have so many federal/state orders, civilians are backordered. But they've over quadrupled their CnC machine count over the last 5 years

That said, even the French are giving up their FAMAS "bugle" and going to an AR-15 compatible platform. Several are also following suit. Bullpups are on the way out. Even the Chinese have pretty dropped theirs altogether for both the 5.8x42 cartridge, and any 7.62x39 developments.

The irony here is that the original, the '70s Steyr AUG, is still one of the best, bullpup designs. The Israeli Tavor is overrated. I utterly agree whole heartedly with The Firearm Blog on this. They literally don't hold back on that one, and they are dead-on.

Bullpups with the 5.56 attempt to solve the barrel length requirement, but the round sucks any way, so not much you can do. Now a bullpup in a 6.5 or .308, now that might be something. But still probably not for a selective fire 'assault rifle,' only a MSR. So, from a military standpoint, they aren't really liking it.

But don't tell that to the Austrians.

The SA80 series has a checkered history. Basically they developed the EM-1/EM-2 to shoot the .280, and then had to change wholesale to the NATO 7.62 because of us Americans.

So when the US pushed the 5.56 almost a quarter century later, after realizing the .280 wasn't going to be considered, they actually revised it to use a new, sub-5mm cartridge, which was novel and actually more effective, and built the SA80 around it. I have to give the British credit, they take American requirements, improve upon them, then bring them back, showing us Americans something better, and we basically smack them without merit.

So ... the SA80 is basically a great gun designed for a different cartridge, so it sucked with the 5.56 due to gas and other differences. Ironically with the whole 9/11 thing, then Iraq, they finally fixed it in the A2 variant, and it's pretty darn good now.

All sorts of various, American entities use all sorts of weapons.

I'm sure the Orlando shooter's choice of the MCX has a lot to do with exposure to Sig's short stroke gas system. If he was providing select security for US federal agencies and other entities, he probably was already familiar with much of the operating mechanisms. So the MCX was an obvious choice, if that was the case.

As always, most threats are insider. It's not random civilians.

Even the San Bernardino couple knew people. It wasn't just getting the weapons, but getting them modified. It's not profiling when people originate from countries with high rates of violence. Especially in the case where they are guilty of Visa overstays and failure to file proper paperwork, because they now they'll likely get turned down, and find other ways to legitimately stay. Marriage or other solutions are often used.

This is what DHS has been complaining to State for a long time. Anyone who purposely avoids things, and finds ways to game the system, are prime targets for further scrutiny.

Same goes for those who are contractors at US federal and other installations.

If you every shoot one, you'll think they suck. The trigger sucks on them. It feels like a toy, with no feel. Sans the newer Keltec design, of course.

Thanks, Prof.
I have to work in about 9 hrs, so it's off to bed. I have enjoyed this exchange, and I will definitely bug you with questions later on.

[profvolup]

Originally Posted by SanteeFats

I hate too break up this discussion between you two (not really or I wouldn't do it ) but this is not really a thread about ammo and weapons it is about gun control and such. If you want to carry this ammo discussion on please start a thread for it. Thank you.

Understand.

But also understand that's why I "circled back" to the Newtown and Orlando shootings.

That is ... a lot of people here are saying a lot of US media non-sense about the AR-15. And the entire 'effectiveness' of the platform is the question.

People say it's a military weapon of war. It's not a very good one, let alone the implementation used in the selective fire AR-15 is not the same as a semi-auto, AR-15 style platform.

Which means ... it's difficult to stay 'on-topic' when people say things that violate physics in the first place. That's why I've gone the 'full circle,' to explain it all.

Including how gun manufacturers and other things play the overall part. Especially since that is the 'charge,' that 'big gun companies' prevent laws from being passed. No, it's mom'n pop grass roots that support the NRA, just like with women and Planned Parenthood too (despite what Republicans say).

Because that's a lot of what a lot of alleged 'gun safety' experts talk about, even though they don't know the first thing about the industry, regulation, etc...

In fact, journalists constantly break the law on firearms, trying to prove things. Why? They don't know it. Most of the public doesn't know the law.

Just like they don't know firearms.

Kinda hard to write new laws, and make that argument, against people who ask to just enforce the existing laws.

Just like it's kind hard to talk about 'Assault Weapons' and 'Assault Rifles,' when people actually don't know what they are, or how they differ, or whatever is what.

The military issue AR-15 platform sucks for killing civilians, just like deer. Always has, always will. The few modifications for the AR-15 to be more effective at deer, pretty much limit their adaptation to selective fire too. So they won't be good for the military at killing civilians either.

But it, again, especially sucks when you can only kick out 4-6 rounds in 8-10 seconds in a civilian implement, instead of the real 'weapon of war' that kicks out 4-6 rounds in a single second.

Just like a Golf Cart styled like a Corvette, compared to a real Corvette.

Which is why you cannot have a 'gun safety' debate, without understanding all this information.

For example ...

Many bullpups are illegal in the US, due to NFA (1934) length, at least not without a stamp and, often, trust. Same with the .300 AAC BLK barrel, if it's under 14-18" (depending on the law).

That's the thing ... you have to literally be in the industry for years, to be knowledegable enough on what is legal, illegal, etc... and understand the laws, in addition to where things come from.

"The AR-15 is a weapon of war" doesn't mean much. Everything is AR-15 style these days in a rifle. Heck, it's a pretty weak one too. There are far better 'cop killers' and 'sniper rifles' too.

Which is why most 'experts' turn off the TV, and don't bother to talk to the US media. And when the US media doesn't get what they want from experts, they edit it. Like Katie Couric did in her recent movie, and has come under intense fire for doing from even other journalists.

At least Katie Couric has peers who hold her accountable. If the average American wants the government to hold a gun to the head of law abiding experts, out of ignorance, can't do much about that.

We much remain educated, to be free. Just wanting laws without understanding not only the existing laws, but how firearms are 'controlled' by them, is just utterly fucked up.

[bowlinggreen]

My eyes are burning from reading these last several pages of posts.

Can we keep it simple, and agree there is a problem, to be solved?

Read the thread topic by the OP - is it time for a change? What KIND of change?

So many here are dead set against banning more guns. OK, it seems mostly these laws have not much effect anyway, but what else can you suggest?

How about some kind of new program/agency SPECIFICALLY designed to track down illegal gun runners, and nothing else, like the DEA? The ATF people seem to be just a big bureaucracy. mainly concerned with tracking sales and not having the resources to go after gunrunners bigtime, which IMHO needs doing. And when they are caught, make it a minimum 25 years at hard labor with no parole in a place like Leavenworth. Equate stolen guns with heroin and punish accordingly.

Maybe the TV/Hollywood people need to pay a violence tax too, on those movies that show dozens of killings per show. Maybe they'd start making better movies again.

[profvolup]

Originally Posted by bowlinggreen

My eyes are burning from reading these last several pages of posts.

Knowledge is power.

Originally Posted by bowlinggreen

Can we keep it simple, and agree there is a problem, to be solved?

But is the problem guns?

Originally Posted by bowlinggreen

Read the thread topic by the OP - is it time for a change? What KIND of change?

"We've gotta do something, even though homicides are still going down! Violence is down in America, but we've gotta stop the violence!"

Originally Posted by bowlinggreen

So many here are dead set against banning more guns. OK, it seems mostly these laws have not much effect anyway, but what else can you suggest?

That is the question!

Since they commit nearly 90% of all the unlawful homicides in the US, we need to target what drives organized crime and gangs, especially the youth getting into local gangs.

Originally Posted by bowlinggreen

How about some kind of new program/agency SPECIFICALLY designed to track down illegal gun runners,

You mean the organized crime syndicates themselves?

It's not the legal shops. That's pretty much been shown. The second time around, the much bigger attempt, even knowing the first one was a failure, it was purposely used so a California legislator could falsely claim it was, which is why 3 ATF agents finally 'whistleblew.' And they paid dearly for it too. I invite everyone to read their sober stories.

Yes, the big, media hoopla over 'gun running' was largely around that infamous California legislator who held up a 'gun' that was 'run' by the ATF itself! It was as faux operation, greatly expanded, to build distrust and exactly what you're arguing here. That's not a conspiracy theory.

It's literally elements of the US government committing fraud to convince the people to overturn a right. That's why the whistleblowers in the ATF finally came out.

The issue with US gun shops selling to Mexican cartels and organized crime is a tiny issue in the grand scheme of things. Most weapons the organized crime syndicates want are not sold in the US. The statistic that US guns are being used in Mexico is utterly made up, and has been debunked over, and over, but has become US media myth.

The only quantity of US made weapons are the old Colt M-16 stocks -- which have never been legally sold in the US to civilians -- that the Mexican military lost control of, because they've recently gone to another standard rifle for general issue. Most of the imports are non-US designs, fully automatic, which are not sold in the US to civilians (which goes back to the whole 'don't be ignorant of the differences of semi-auto v. selective fire/full auto'). Because over 99% of unlawful discharges of fully automatic weapons in the US are by organized crime and gangs, and over 90% of them are by undocumented residents.

Every time the Brady Foundation starts that non-sense, everyone goes to their own statistics. They are not sold in the US. They are not legal. They are used by organized crime. And they are used by non-citizens overwhelmingly. Even the mob has traditionally been similar too, although it used to be easier to become an American citizen, and more difficult to be tracked, as a citizen (or potential citizen) in yesteryear. Which is why it's becoming more and more undocumented residents (who are far more difficult to track than a citizen, or potential citizen), where they operate out of the 'amnesty cities' where local law enforcement doesn't work with or report to the ATF, CBP, DEA and FBI who does their best to track the 'enforcers' in the syndicates.

This is nothing new. The US media tries to spin it, but it's the same, 80+ year problem.

Originally Posted by bowlinggreen

and nothing else, like the DEA?

Oh boy. Maybe legalizing drugs, or at least focusing on rehibilitation, would help more here? Is Colorado not enough proof?

What about CBP? The guys that deal with the guns and drugs that come across the border? Especially the weapons that are not for legal sale in the US, but are used by gangs, let alone run by the organized crime syndicates themselves?

Originally Posted by bowlinggreen

The ATF people seem to be just a big bureaucracy. mainly concerned with tracking sales and not having the resources to go after gunrunners bigtime, which IMHO needs doing.

You mean the organized crime syndicates, correct? I think you've been listening to the media too much. It's not legal gun ownership and related sales to them that is the problem. This has pretty much been discussed and beaten to death by the ATF.

If you don't believe me, talk to not only a real ATF agent that deals with enforcement, and knows all the federal laws, but also a real CBP agent. They'll tell you things you never hear in the media!

Did anyone actually watching the hearings? I know the mainstream US media didn't cover them, but the ATF basically got destroyed with all the information provided by the 3 whistleblowers. I actually felt for them, because they are biting their own tongues, because of where their orders come from (politicians).

Originally Posted by bowlinggreen

And when they are caught, make it a minimum 25 years at hard labor with no parole in a place like Leavenworth. Equate stolen guns with heroin and punish accordingly.

Ummm, a lot of these guys are hanging out with enforcers and hitmen. I don't know what you're talking about.

Originally Posted by bowlinggreen

Maybe the TV/Hollywood people need to pay a violence tax too, on those movies that show dozens of killings per show. Maybe they'd start making better movies again.

Oh, you mean like the LA Times being the first paper that admits the media itself might be complicit in making the shooters infamous?

That is a long-standing argument that goes back to origins of sensationalist US news media in the '70s, after the Manson episode.

Or even the gangster movies of the '30s in Hollywood, and the best 'civilian killer' of all ... the big, fat .45 ACP in a 60-100 cartridge drum on a Tommy Gun.

Honestly, when the US media stops naming the criminal, refuses to say his name, and only focuses on the victims and heros, you're going to see a lot of things change.

In fact, that's what most new analysts that are 70+, and were around before the Manson non-sense, actually recommend.

[diamelsx]

The thing about the way the discussion we are hearing from the people who shoot, too bad we cannot hear from the people who have been shot...