The Military History Thread

[Mal Hombre]

And Hannibal murdered by Roman agents,Boudicca came close to driving the Romans out of Britain and She has a statue in the city that She razed to the ground..

[crinolynne]

Originally Posted by Mal Hombre

And Hannibal murdered by Roman agents,Boudicca came close to driving the Romans out of Britain and She has a statue in the city that She razed to the ground..

I don't have a reference in mind, but I believe Boudicca's revolt was only successful to the time the Romans got themselves organized.

Now, the myth I'd like to explore is that the Romans lost the battle of Mons Graupius...

[rupertramjet]

Originally Posted by crinolynne

I don't have a reference in mind, but I believe Boudicca's revolt was only successful to the time the Romans got themselves organized.

Now, the myth I'd like to explore is that the Romans lost the battle of Mons Graupius...

Not according to Tacitus, he quotes a huge Roman victory, with Caledonian Confederacy loses at 10000, and Roman at only 350. Although this account has been critcised Agricola, the Roman Governor was his father in law, there is no other major account available.

The Caledonian leader Calgagus is barely mentioned in the account and the claim is that the entire battle was carried out by the auxiliary cohorts, four Batavian and two Tungrian with the Legions being held in reserve, the Caledonians were on a hill in horseshoe formation, with the front rank on the flat and rising rank by rank up the slope in tiers, the Romans would have made a direct frontal attack, using the shield wall, a grinding advance, depending on the immense discipline of the infantry, and pushed back the front rank and then on to the next and so on. The claim is that the Caledonian forces broke and took cover in the woods, and were then hunted down.

There is much debate as to the actual site of the battle, many feel that it could well have been at Kempstone or Megray Hill close to the Roman Fort at Raedykes, the area matches the descriptions although others argue it could have been in at least thirty other locations!

The most interesting aspect is that the British tribes and their leaders, famously carried out a war in which they refused to meet the Romans in a pitched battle, the Romans had nullified the Chariot, the number one tactic of the tribes, and their armour and shields were no match for the Roman infantry, it is a surprise therefore that the battle ever took place.

Sorry crinolynne, could not help with the myth!

[Ennath]

May 16, 1364
Battle of Cocherel

Charles II “the Bad” of Navarre had designs on the Duchy of Burgundy, which the newly crowned Charles V of France wished to give to his brother, Philip II. England supported Navarre’s claim and the opposing armies met at Cocherel, in eastern Normandy.

The king of France's forces were led by Bertrand du Guesclin, though Jean, Count of Auxerre was the highest-ranking noble present. There were knights from Burgundy, Brittany, Picardy, Paris and Gascony. Total strength, foot and mounted, was about 3000.

The forces of Navarre were commanded by the Gascon noble Jean de Grailly, Captal de Buch and consisted of 800-900 knights and 4-5000 soldiers from Normandy, Gascony and England, including 300 English archers. The English and Gascons consisted mainly of routier companies that had been operating in Brittany and Western France. These were free-lance sometime mercenaries, sometine brigands, who lived by raiding and extorting from the surrounding countryside.

The Navarrese army was lined up in 3 “battles”. It took up a defensive position, with the archers forming wedges along the front, a standard tactic for English armies of the period. In the past when the opposing army had advanced then they would be cut to pieces by the archers; however in this battle, du Guesclin managed to break the defensive formation with a feigned retreat, which tempted English knight Sir John Jouel and his battalion from their hill in pursuit. Captal de Buch and his company followed. A flank attack by du Guesclin's reserve then won the day.

Captal de Busch was captured. After his release the following year, he defected to the French and was made lord of Nemours by Charles V. However, he soon returned his allegiance to the English, and in 1367 he went to Spain with the Black Prince, fighting at the Battle of Navarette (see posting), where he would gain a measure of revenge against du Guesclin.

[Ennath]

12 BC
German War of Drusus

Decimus Claudius Drusus was the youngest son of Livia Drusilla from her marriage to Tiberius Claudius Nero, who was legally declared his father before the couple divorced. Drusus was born in 38 BC, three months after Livia married Octavius Caesar. Drusus was raised in Claudius Nero's house with his brother, the future emperor Tiberius, until his legal father's death. The two brothers developed a famously close relationship that would last the rest of their lives. Tiberius named his eldest son after his brother, and Drusus did likewise, although eldest sons were usually named after their father or grandfather.

Drusus married Antonia Minor, daughter of Mark Antony and Augustus' sister Octavia, and gained a reputation of being completely faithful to her. After Drusus' death, Antonia never remarried, though she outlived him by nearly 5 decades. 3 emperors were direct descendants of Drusus: his son Claudius, his grandson Caligula, and his great-grandson Nero.

Augustus bestowed many honors on his stepsons. In 19 BC, Drusus was granted the ability to hold all public offices 5 years before the minimum age. When Tiberius left Italy during his term as praetor in 16 BC, Drusus legislated in his place. He became quaestor the following year, fighting against Raetian bandits in the Alps. Drusus repelled them, gaining honors, but was unable to smash their forces, and required reinforcement from Tiberius. The brothers easily defeated the local Alpine tribes.

Drusus arrived in Gaul in late 15 BC to serve as legatus Augusti pro praetore (governor on Augustus' behalf with the authority of a praetor). As governor of Gaul, Drusus made his headquarters at Lugdunum (Lyon). Starting in 14 BC, Drusus built a string of military bases along the Rhine - 50 according to Florus - and established an alliance with the Batavi in preparation for military action in Germania Libera (Free Germany). He is likely to have had 7 legions under his command.

In spring of 12 BC, he embarked an expeditionary force by ship from the vicinity of modern Nijmegen, making use of one or more canals he had built for the purpose. Drusus sailed to the mouth of the Ems and penetrated into the territory of the Chauci in modern Lower Saxony. The Chauci concluded a treaty acknowledging Roman supremacy, and would remain allies of Rome for years. As they continued to ascend the Ems, the Romans were attacked by the Bructeri in boats. Drusus' forces defeated the Bructeri in a naval battle, but, as it was now late in the campaign season, turned back for winter quarters in Gaul, taking advantage of a new alliance with the Frisii to navigate through the difficult conditions on the North Sea.

As a reward for the successes of his campaign, Drusus was made praetor urbanus for 11 BC when he returned to Rome for the winter. News of Drusus' achievements - navigating the North Sea, carrying the Roman eagles into new territory, and fixing new peoples into treaty relations with Rome, caused considerable excitement in Rome and were commemorated on coins.

Drusus did not have it in him to stay in Rome. In the spring of his term as praetor urbanus, he set out for the German border once more. This time, he assembled a force consisting of all or part of 5 legions in addition to auxiliaries and, setting out from Vetera on the Rhine, ascended the Lippe River. Here he encountered the Tencteri and Usipetes, whom he defeated in 2 separate engagements. He reached the Werra Valley before deciding to turn back for the season, as winter was coming on, supplies were dwindling, and the omens were unfavorable. While his forces were making their way back through the territory of the Cherusci, the latter tribe laid an ambush for them at Arbalo. The Cherusci failed to capitalize on their initial advantage, whereupon the Romans broke through their lines, defeated the Germans, and acclaimed Drusus as imperator. To show his continued mastery of the ground, Drusus garrisoned a number of positions in Germania during the winter of 11-10 BC. He then reported to Augustus in Rome, was given the honor of an ovation, and for the second time, Augustus closed the doors of the Temple of Janus, signifying that the whole Roman world was then at peace. Drusus was granted the office of proconsul for the following year.

In 10 BC, the Chatti joined with the Sicambri and attacked Drusus' camp, but were driven back. Drusus pursued, proceeding from the sites of present-day Mainz, where he set up a supply base, to Hedemünden, where a strong new camp was established. Around this time, the canny Marcomannic king Maroboduus responded to the Roman incursion by relocating his people en masse to Bohemia. In summer of 10 BC, Drusus left the field in order to return to Lugdunum, where he inaugurated the sanctuary of the Three Gaulish provinces at Condate on August 1. Augustus and Tiberius were in Lugdunum for this occasion (when Drusus' youngest son Claudius was born), and afterwards Drusus accompanied them back to Rome.

Drusus easily won election as consul for the year 9 BC. Once more he left the city before assuming office. His consulship conferred the chance for Drusus to attain Rome's highest and rarest military honor, the spolia opima, or spoils of an enemy chieftain slain personally by an opposing Roman general who was fighting (as consuls did) under his own auspices. He quickly returned to the field, stopping to confer with his staff at Lugdunum and to dedicate a temple to Caesar Augustus, before rejoining his command at Mainz, from which the year's expedition departed in early spring. Drusus led the army via Rödgen through the territories of the Marsi and Cherusci until he even crossed the Elbe. Here he is said to have seen an apparition of a Germanic woman who warned him against proceeding farther and that his death was near. Drusus turned back, erecting a trophy to commemorate his reaching the Elbe, perhaps on the site of Dresden or Magdeburg.

Drusus had sought out at least three Germanic chieftains during his campaigns in Germany, engaging them in single combat. The sources are ambiguous, but imply that at some point he did take the spolia opima from a Germanic king, thus becoming the 4th and final Roman to gain this honor.

Drusus was returning from his advance to the Elbe when he fell from his horse, lingering on for a month after the accident, by which point Tiberius had joined him. Interestingly, soon before his death he wrote a letter to Tiberius complaining about the style in which Augustus ruled. Suetonius reports that he had refused to return to Rome just before his death. Drusus' body was brought back to the city, and his ashes were deposited in the Mausoleum of Augustus. He remained extremely popular with the legionaries, who erected a monument in Mogontiacum (modern Mainz) on his behalf, remnants of which are still standing. His family was granted the hereditary honorific title Germanicus, which was given to his eldest son before passing to his youngest. Augustus later wrote a biography of him which does not survive. By Augustus' decree, festivals were held in Mogontiacum at Drusus' death day and probably also on his birthday.

[crinolynne]

Originally Posted by rupertramjet

Not according to Tacitus, he quotes a huge Roman victory, with Caledonian Confederacy loses at 10000, and Roman at only 350. Although this account has been critcised Agricola, the Roman Governor was his father in law, there is no other major account available.

The Caledonian leader Calgagus is barely mentioned in the account and the claim is that the entire battle was carried out by the auxiliary cohorts, four Batavian and two Tungrian with the Legions being held in reserve, the Caledonians were on a hill in horseshoe formation, with the front rank on the flat and rising rank by rank up the slope in tiers, the Romans would have made a direct frontal attack, using the shield wall, a grinding advance, depending on the immense discipline of the infantry, and pushed back the front rank and then on to the next and so on. The claim is that the Caledonian forces broke and took cover in the woods, and were then hunted down.

There is much debate as to the actual site of the battle, many feel that it could well have been at Kempstone or Megray Hill close to the Roman Fort at Raedykes, the area matches the descriptions although others argue it could have been in at least thirty other locations!

The most interesting aspect is that the British tribes and their leaders, famously carried out a war in which they refused to meet the Romans in a pitched battle, the Romans had nullified the Chariot, the number one tactic of the tribes, and their armour and shields were no match for the Roman infantry, it is a surprise therefore that the battle ever took place.

Sorry crinolynne, could not help with the myth!

Aye but...

Roman historians are famous for exageration. It's very curiously that after such a massive victory, they did not followup. Rather, they fell back and built a wall, two of them. There's more than a hint that Tacitus was spinning a defeat of some sort. We will never know of course.

I grew up in Strathmore, along the line of march to that battle, and very close to that other great Pict victory, Nechtansmere.

All in good fun! Thanks for the exposition 'jet. Always good to read your contributions.

[Ernesto75]

As always Ennath' work is remarkable.

It is a little confusing.

So there were 3 Germanicus ?
- first Drusus who avenged the Teutoburg Roman disaster and died under Augustus ?;
- then his eldest son who got assassinated under Caligula ?
- then another Germanicus ?

I admit I am a little lost among the Germanicus.

[rupertramjet]

Germanicus was a name, today we use a title, Like Baron Lord Duke and that persons sons would be named after him, for example the Duke of Wellington, the current Duke of Wellington is the ninth Duke. There are also a series of other titles which are also inherited.

Another example of Roman awards is Scipio Africanus, who was awarded his agnomen for his various feats during the Punic Wars, and his defeat of Hannibal at the battle of Zama in 202 BC. His descendants too would have used the agnomen, hope that explains.

[Ennath]

Originally Posted by Ernesto75

As always Ennath' work is remarkable.

It is a little confusing.

So there were 3 Germanicus ?
- first Drusus who avenged the Teutoburg Roman disaster and died under Augustus ?;
- then his eldest son who got assassinated under Caligula ?
- then another Germanicus ?

I admit I am a little lost among the Germanicus.

Germanicus number 1 was Drusus. Germanicus number 2 was his eldest son, also a successful general, who died under mysterious circumstances in the reign of Tiberius (AD19). His eldest son, Germanicus number 3, was better known by his nickname - Caligula (Little Boot), given him as a child by his father's soldiers.

[Ernesto75]

Originally Posted by Ennath

Germanicus number 1 was Drusus. Germanicus number 2 was his eldest son, also a successful general, who died under mysterious circumstances in the reign of Tiberius (AD19). His eldest son, Germanicus number 3, was better known by his nickname - Caligula (Little Boot), given him as a child by his father's soldiers.

Thank you Ennath, you answered my questions.
I had doubts.

I think that is much clearer now.