Current Politics in the United Kingdom

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

According to Tony Blair, if Brits do not get all what they want. If they aren't 100% winners, they will have to revote.

Maybe I'll be wrong, but I'm sure that will happen like that. 100% sure. How could it be different?
It was a party of liar poker.

If Tony Bliar told me today was Sunday I would go out and buy a newspaper to check, he's a smarmy soiled goods yesterday's man with bugger all credibility with the British people.

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by Wendigo

If Tony Bliar told me today was Sunday I would go out and buy a newspaper to check, he's a smarmy soiled goods yesterday's man with bugger all credibility with the British people.

Learn French, Italian or German and read Swiss newspapers.
I read that several times, EU elites will destroy Swiss direct democracy.
Don't think that you are far more stronger than Swiss people because you are more people.
You can think what you want, but that's the rules of this actual dirty, very dirty capitalism.

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

I read that several times, EU elites will destroy Swiss direct democracy.

Great selling point for the Remainers


I am still optimistic that a reasonable deal will be done as it does nobody any good for both sides to walk away without reaching a deal.
If not then as I have said before we should have the final option to leave on our own terms and do our own thing.

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by ********

That would be ideal, but for it to happen then the UK really needs to propose something reasonable. Like a practical description of the Irish border that magically ends freedom of movement while still allowing free movement over it.

I suspect however that nothing the UK Government could realistically propose would come anywhere near meeting your no doubt quixotic definition of reasonable.

We can see what a success freedom of movement for people within the EU is by looking at the refugee camps in Northern France. Yup, I'd look to the EU for assistance with that issue ....

Interestingly almost 2 years on and even the straw poll at the top of this thread is still firmly in the leave camp. What a great success the Remain camp is also having in cyberspace.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by ********

That doesn't make sense. How can the border be open but also not have uncontrolled movement of peolpe? If there is no physical barrier to people simply walking over the border, how will movement be controlled?

Since free movement over the border is a core part of the Good Friday Agreement, you are advocating tearing that up. You do realize that we will go back to the troubles, right? The political process that ended them will cease and the politicians who negotiated the "deal" will have that blood on their hands, their legacies ruined. I'd say it was political suicide if it wasn't for that fact that it will be other people dying.

Fortunately, May has already promised not to do this, so you are probably in for some disapointment.



None of those are remotely comparable. For example, the HK/China border is a hard border. You need decoumentation and checks to cross it. Commercial vehicles crossing it have to be inspected.

Also note that the EU's willingness to solve it is irrelevant. The problem is the Good Friday Agreement and the nature of a free trade deal. The GFA was written by the UK, so you can't blame that on the EU. The nature of a free trade deal is that stuff can cross the border without checks, and obviously if you have no checks you can't stop people crossing it (so it's the Brexiteers objecting). There are lots of other issues but let's concentrate on those.

You need to explain how you are going to square the circle of an open border and border controls. It's the UK blocking this.



Well May has fucked you then because she is promising "regulatory alignment" and leaving the customs union, which means you get all the rules of the customs union but absolutely no say in it.

That's far worse than staying in the customs union as an EEA member, which gives you a seat at the table and an effective veto.

Moko, old chap, you have confused me in your mind with someone towards whom you are entitled to express yourself in a supercilious and discourteous manner. Please reconsider.

To re-iterate: the point of leaving the EU is to regain direct control of Britain's borders and Britain's laws.

If membership of the customs union is compatible with regaining direct control of Britain's borders and Britain's laws, that would be new information to me and I will be very interested in an explanation of the point. But in the extreme analysis, we have an army, a navy and an air force. No one will stop us if it is our firm decision to reassert our authority on our own borders and over our own laws; that is why we have a military.

As always, the peaceful and diplomatic route is to be preferred. The border settlement is going to be central to our phase two negotiations, which cannot succeed unless agreement is reached. But as you rightly say it is the free movement of people which is the bone of contention and unless the EU thinks this freedom is so important that it merits the failure of the Good Friday agreement and the likely resumption of hostilities, the EU will need to give some ground on that freedom to make the deal achievable.

The answer to that one may well rest on passport checks internally in Northern Ireland and a requirement for EU citizens to submit to checks at Belfast's airport and ferry terminals should they travel onwards to the UK. Irish citizens have been exempt from such requirements for decades and there a Common Travel Area agreement between Britain and Ireland which covers that point. There is also a common visa system whereby you can a single visa which allows rights to visit both Britain and Ireland. This agreement could be utilised as the mechanism for controlling the movements of EU nationals in and out of Ireland's land border with the UK with very little fuss. Always provided the free movement of labour is not important enough to be worth sacrificing the Good Friday agreement, naturally.

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by ********

Is it really too much to ask that they don't break the agreement keeping the peace on the island of Ireland?

Agreements can be renegotiated, both sides have benefited from the peace dividend over the last almost 20 years so there may be less of a problem as they know how much of a bonus peace has been, they may still not be on each other's Christmas card lists but they are now talking (most of the time anyway).

Nothing has been decided yet and I still think with good will and less intransigent political dogma that a positive solution can be found.
With each post you're putting medieval flagellants to shame. You really are the most pessimistic person I know

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by ********

Okay, but you keep dodging the question.

It's fine to say it can be negotiated, but you have to have something to negotiate first. What is your proposed solution that you want the EU to agree to?

Not really, coming up with solutions is what politicians are paid to do.

By your twisted logic there would be no change allowed in the world in case it caused problems to some existing treaty.

The British people voted for a change, it's up to our politicians to deliver that, what you or I may think is irrelevant as they have access to ALL the information, we are just conjecturing at best, hapless wishful thinking at worst.

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by ********

Come on, don't be silly. I'm not against change, but not all change is the same. You are demanding that the Good Friday Agreement be torn up, and trying to pass responsibility for the resulting violence and strife on to politicians doesn't shift the blame.

So let's just see if I have your position corect. You want out of the custom's union. You accept that this is incompatible with the Good Friday Agreement as it stands. You expect politicans to come up with a solution to this seemingly impossible problem, despite the fact that no one else in the entire world has been able to. You feel this absolves you of responsibility for this demand, as presumably when the first bomb goes off you will blame the EU somehow.

Is that a fair assessment?

Er no it isn't, pay attention at the back of the class will you

If a bomb goes off anywhere the knob who plants it is solely responsible, your whining "you will blame the EU somehow" comment is typical of the soft underbelly of the Remain camp.

I haven't anywhere demanded the Good Friday treaty be torn up, all I have said is that treaties can be amended as circumstances change over time. You find anywhere where I said what you are prattling on about.

Yes, I DO expect politicians to sort it out as it was that diehard remain tosspot Cameron who promised and delivered the referendum (a rare occasion where a politician actually kept their word), at that time HMG should have looked into the blatantly obvious to anyone with a working brain "what if" scenario. How Brexit is actually achieved is up to HMG, simples.

Even Cameron has changed his tune recently
David Cameron: Brexit's turned out 'less badly than first thought'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42806207

If you have any beef about the current situation then I kindly suggest you write a very stern letter to your MP and demand your voice is heard above the 17.4 million Leave voters

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by ********

Love the way you end it with "simples", possibly the least appropriate word in the English language.

Why thanks for noticing that, it was merely an appropriate reply to you as you cannot seem to accept the simple concept that political decisions are for politicians to make. Only time will tell if those decisions were correct, I trust their reading of the situation more than I would yours.

Swapping posts with you is just like platting fog

[Devius]

Henry Bolton was today ousted as UKIP leader after controversy over racist messages about Meghan Markle sent by his partner Jo Marney
.

Details:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43098646