The Military History Thread

[Dr Pepper]

Actually gents-its the caltrops (I'm showing my cavalry background here aren't I?)-a device intended to deny or impede horses and personnel on foot. During my last couple of years in the NZ army, we were looking at these as a possible part of the 'toolkit' of non lethal weaponry. [we investigated a whole raft of interesting current and future ideas. My personal favourite being high intensity infrasound-which causes (amongst other things)-involuntary bowel movements...you'd only need to use once on an unruly crowd...... I'll let your imagination fill in the gaps-especially when you're dealing with demonstrators....
.......my second favourite was the taser claymore device......]

Anyway we looked at possible rapid deployment options for caltrops (very feasible, BTW and if they're ferrous,-magnetic sweeping and recovery to clear the area afterwards) and it turned out that the caltrops has lasted virtually unchanged in shape for about 3500 years.....though originally in bronze rather than steel....such a simple device

[Dr Pepper]

Originally Posted by haroldeye

A crossed woman's tongue?

No haroldeye-that's "the only weapon that grows sharper with constant use...!"

[rustler]

Originally Posted by haroldeye

From arrows in the Tower Collection the programme concluded that Henry's archers had both anti armour and anti personnel arrowheads. They trialled the AP heads against steel plate of the known quality of the time and concluded it was Goodnight Pierre.

At very close range!


The bodkin arrow head is the anti-armour arrow head as Dr.Pepper mentioned. A square headed slightly blunt pointed head for use against armoured targets. Things that have to be taken into account, and people like Mr. Hardy all to often do not, is as I mentioned earlier, the quality of the armour and of the arrowhead.
Armour made in England, France, Italy or Germany, all differ vastly in the material that they are made of and in their method of heat treatment - or lack of it! Also most modern arrow smiths make their arrow heads of steel and then harden them, whereas the vast majority were made of iron, which is relatively soft, especially against a target like a breastplate.

Pure iron has a Vickers Pyramid Hardness (VPH) of about 80 VPH. Pure copper is about 60 VPH. Copper, when beaten cold, can be 'work hardened' to about 100 VPH. So can iron, but arrow heads were forged hot, and quenching them in water or oil doesn't harden iron either so that makes no difference. The iron after forging will still have a VPH of ca.80. You can 'pack' them, that is hammer harden them cold slightly after forging, but they will still be fairly soft. As I said earlier, the original one that I have here somewhere is bent in two places as a result of hitting something hard and then bouncing off!
Steel which is much harder (medium carbon steel with about 0.6% carbon, has a VPH of about 200, and of course can he hardened further by quenching!) wasn't made in England until about 1600, it was imported, so would have been far too expensive to 'waste' on arrowheads which were made by the hundreds of thousands.


The arrowhead on the left is a the usual medieval war arrow, used against soft targets. The arrowhead on the right is a 'Bodkin' head used against armour.


At very close range, yes I am sure it will penetrate armour to some extent, if all the variables agree. At longer range you have to get lucky, or kill the horses or softer targets.

[rustler]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

The funny thing about Shakespeare's stature is that his Henry becomes "Henry".

Do we have any record of statements or speeches by the historical Henry about Agincourt?

I do not know about Agincourt, but from what I do know about Henry V he was very quietly spoken.

This version of his famous Agincourt speech by Shakespeare might be nearer the truth (had he said it!), than the fire and brimstone version of Laurence Olivier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTrnn0qzzCU

[rustler]

Originally Posted by Dr Pepper

Actually gents-its the caltrops (I'm showing my cavalry background here aren't I?)-a device intended to deny or impede horses and personnel on foot.

The police here use a spiked mat which is basically caltrops, to stop cars at known points when they're being chased. They were used a while back to stop a car following a police chase, after the driver had run down and killed a police officer. The car was brought to an immediate stop and the man was arrested without further injury.

The Romans also used lots of caltrops a I recall.

[Dr Pepper]

A google image search on 'caltrops' will bring up a lot of images-nearly all of which are a minor variation on the standard 'tetrahedron' design-simple and brilliant-no matter how it lands-a sharp point is always upright.Some with barbs, some with a ball at the centre-some modern ones the spikes are hollow, to deflate 'run flat' tyres.......and any other bloody tyre too when you think about it...
We were thinking of it more in an anti personnel sense, to deny access or channel movement in a crowd control/anti-demonstration type scenario-and were looking at options for scattering them in quantity, very rapidly, over a reasonable area. A LV projector firing a carrier shell-that sort of thing. As with most of these types of weapon systems-whether lethal or non lethal, getting an even dispersion of the payload is the tricky bit. I suppose originally-BCE they were scattered behind a moving horse, or scattered by the handful from a pouch or basket.

....we even considered coming up with our own-based on practice golf balls (the lightweight hollow ones, with holes in them) and using running shoe/climbing spikes for the points-but realised it was going to be very labour intensive....
....mind you it would have made good punishment for recalcitrant squaddies..."Right Bloggs you 'orrible little man-you're going to take these four sacks containing 200,000 running shoe studs and screw four of them at EXACTLY 120 degrees apart into each of those 50,000 practice golf balls over there-exactly like this example 'ere wot I'm 'oldin in me 'and.....got it? Right? carry on then........

[Ennath]

October 26, 1341
Byzantine Civil War, Part 1

With the Byzantine Empire under pressure and losing Anatolia to the new Ottoman emirate, Andronikos III seized the throne in 1328, with the aid of a group of young aristocrats led by John Kantakouzenos. Kantakouzenos was related to the Palaiologoi through his mother and became the closest and most trusted advisor of Andronikos and served as commander of the army. Their ties were further strengthened in the spring of 1341, when the latter's eldest son, Matthew Kantakouzenos, wed Irene Palaiologina, a cousin of the Emperor.

Following a short illness, Andronikos III died on June 15, 1341. His 9-year-old son John (John V) was the obvious successor, but had not been officially proclaimed or crowned as co-emperor. This left a legal vacuum. According to Byzantine custom, the empress-dowager automatically headed any regency. Nevertheless, despite the lack of any formal appointment, Kantakouzenos placed Andronikos III's sons and the Empress-dowager Anna of Savoy under armed guard, and in a meeting of the Senate claimed the regency for himself by virtue of his close association with the deceased Emperor. The claim was disputed by Patriarch John XIV Kalekas, who presented a document from Andronikos dating from 1334, assigning to him the care of the imperial family in the case of his death. Only after a demonstration of the capital's troops did Kantakouzenos secure recognition as regent, as well as maintaining control over the army.

Nevertheless, opposition to Kantakouzenos began to coalesce around three figures: the Patriarch, the Empress-regent, who feared that Kantakouzenos would dispossess her son, and Alexios Apokaukos, the ambitious commander-in-chief of the navy and head of the bureaucracy. A “new man” promoted as the protégé of Andronikos III and possibly the richest man in the Empire by 1341, Apokaukos was distrusted by the hereditary aristocracy.

Kantakouzenos, as military commander, was forced to absent himself from the capital on campaign. He was successful, turning back a Serbian threat and defeating Turkish raiders. To crown this success, Kantakouzenos received an embassy of the Latin barons of the Principality of Achaea, who expressed readiness to surrender in exchange for a guarantee of their property and rights. At this point Kantakouzenos received grave news from Constantinople. In late August Apokaukos attempted a coup and tried to kidnap John V. He failed, but was pardoned by Kantakouzenos and restored to his offices.

As soon as Kantakouzenos had left again, Apokaukos gathered a group of high-ranking aristocrats around him. The Patriarch, backed by Apokaukos' group and the authority of the Empress, dismissed Kantakouzenos from his offices and declared him a public enemy. Patriarch Kalekas himself was proclaimed regent and Apokaukos named Eparch of Constantinople. Kantakouzenos' relatives and supporters were imprisoned or forced to flee.

Kantakouzenos was forced to take decisive action, and on October 26, the army and his supporters proclaimed him Emperor John VI. Although he still presented himself as a junior colleague to John V, and claimed to be only acting in the boy's name, he had effectively started a civil war. Kantakouzenos hoped that negotiation might resolve the situation, but his envoys were imprisoned and he and his supporters excommunicated. On November 19, the regency responded to Kantakouzenos' proclamation with the formal coronation of John V.

Kantakouzenos' proclamation caused a rift in Byzantine society, between urban and rural factions. The cities, dominated by the middle-class civil bureaucracy and merchant class (the "people of the market"), favored a more mercantile economy and close relations with the Italian maritime republics and supported the regency, while the countryside remained under the control of the conservative landed aristocracy, which traditionally shunned commercial activities as unworthy of its status and supported Kantakouzenos. The first manifestation of this social division appeared in Adrianople where, on October 27, the populace expelled the city's aristocrats, securing it for the regency. This event was repeated over the next weeks in town after town throughout Thrace and Macedonia. In this hostile atmosphere, many of Kantakouzenos' soldiers abandoned him and returned to Constantinople. In Demotika alone the rising was quelled, and the town remained Kantakouzenos' main stronghold in Thrace throughout the war.

Heavy snowfall shut down campaigning for the winter. By this time, almost all of the Byzantine provinces had declared for the regency. Only Theodore Synadenos, an old associate of Kantakouzenos and governor of the Empire's second city, Thessalonika, indicated his support.

With the approach of spring, Kantakouzenos left his wife Irene and brother-in-law, the Bulgarian Manuel Asen, to hold Demotika and marched west on March 2, 1342 to occupy Thessalonika and link up with some Serbian magnates under Hrelja of Strumica, who indicated support.

On the way, he first attacked Peritheorion but was repelled and continued westward. Kantakouzenos was however able to take the fortress of Melnik, where he met with Hrelja to forge an alliance. Their armies marched toward Thessalonika, but arrived too late to take control. As they approached the city, they were met by Synadenos and other aristocrats, who had fled after an uprising led by a radical popular party, the Zealots. Soon afterwards a fleet of 70 ships led by Apokaukos reinforced the city. Synadenos, whose family had remained behind, defected to the regency.

At the same time, the regency army campaigned in Thrace, formally taking possession of towns secured by popular revolt. With Thessalonika barred against him, supply lines to Thrace cut, and desertions having reduced his army to 2000 men, of whom half belonged to Hrelja, Kantakouzenos was forced to withdraw north to Serbia, where he hoped to secure the aid of King Stephen Dushan. Soon after, Hrelja also deserted Kantakouzenos and joined the regency, hoping to gain control of Melnik for himself. In July 1342, Kantakouzenos met Dushan near Pristina. Desperately in need of Serbian aid, Kantakouzenos apparently agreed that the Serbs could keep any town they took, despite his own later account to the contrary. The only concession Kantakouzenos secured was that an exception be made for those towns that surrendered to him in person. Hrelja, too, acceded to the pact, in exchange for Melnik. After Hrelja's death later that year, Melnik was seized by Dushan.

In late summer 1342, Kantakouzenos, accompanied by several Serbian magnates, marched into Macedonia at the head of a Greek and Serbian force, intending to break through to his wife, who still held out at Demotika. His advance was stopped almost immediately at Serres when the city refused to surrender and the subsequent siege had to be abandoned after an epidemic killed most of his men, forcing him to retreat into Serbia with a rump force of barely 500 soldiers. Dushan led a more successful parallel campaign. Serbian forces captured Florina and Kastoria, extending their hold over western Macedonia. The Serbs also expanded their control over Albania, so that by the summer of 1343, with the exception of Angevin-controlled Dyrrhachium, all of the region appears to have fallen under Serbian rule. Morale among Kantakouzenos' followers fell. Rumors circulated in Constantinople that a dejected Kantakouzenos planned to retire to Mount Athos as a monk, and riots broke out in the city in which several rich men were killed and their houses looted by the populace.

In late fall, Empress Anna twice sent embassies to Dushan trying to convince him to surrender Kantakouzenos, but the Serbian ruler, seeking to extract more profit from the alliance, refused. Kantakouzenos' fortunes began to improve when a delegation of the nobles of Thessaly offered to accept his authority. Kantakouzenos appointed his relative John Angelos as the province's governor. Although in effect a semi-independent ruler, Angelos was both loyal and effective. He soon brought Epirus into the Kantakouzenist camp, and even made gains in Thessaly at the expense of the Catalans of Athens. Another effort by Kantakouzenos to break into Macedonia failed before Serres. In the meantime, Kantakouzenos' wife Irene called upon the aid of the Bulgarians to help relieve the blockade of Demotika by the regency's army. Tsar Ivan Alexander dispatched troops, but they did little but pillage the countryside.

At this point, Kantakouzenos' position was greatly strengthened by the intervention of an old friend, Umur Bey of Aydin, who in late 1342, sailed up the Evros river and relieved Demotika both from the regency siege and the depredations of the Bulgarians. After pillaging Thrace for a few months, Umur was forced to retreat to Asia at the onset of winter. This turn of events displeased Dushan, as Kantakouzenos now had an independent power base and was less reliant on Serbian goodwill. The final rift between Kantakouzenos and Dushan occurred in April 1343, when Kantakouzenos persuaded the town of Berroia, besieged by the Serbs, to surrender to him instead of Dushan. This was followed by the surrender of several other forts in the area to Kantakouzenos. These moves strengthened his position and independence from Dushan, thwarting the latter's plans for expansion. Realizing that he had little to gain by continuing to support Kantakouzenos, Dushan opened negotiations with the regency and concluded a formal alliance with them in the summer of 1343.

Meanwhile, Kantakouzenos and his army camped outside Thessalonika, hoping to take the city through the aid of his supporters within. Apokaukos arrived at the head of the fleet to aid the Zealots, pinning Kantakouzenos in Macedonia between Thessalonika and Dushan's possessions. Once again Umur Bey came to the rescue with a fleet carrying some 6000 men, and Apokaukos fled from the superior Turkish fleet. Nevertheless, Thessalonika was able to hold out against a siege by Kantakouzenos and Umur. Although he had failed to take the city, the aid of his Turkish allies allowed Kantakouzenos to turn his attention towards Thrace. In late 1343 he left his son Manuel as governor of Berroia and western Macedonia and marched towards Demotika, relieving the city and seeing his wife for the first time in almost two years. On his way, Kantakouzenos seized a number of fortresses in Thrace, although a siege of Peritheorion failed. He followed up with a successful campaign that took fortresses in the Rhodope area. Over the next couple of years, the towns and forts of Thrace came over to Kantakouzenos' camp one by one, but at great cost, as his mainly Turkish troops repeatedly plundered the countryside. The shifting tide of the war did not go unnoticed in the opposing camp. In late 1344, several prominent personalities defected to Kantakouzenos, including John Vatatzes, a general and relative by marriage to both the Patriarch and Apokaukos, the Patriarch of Jerusalem Lazaros, and, most importantly, Manuel Apokaukos, son of Admiral Alexios and governor of Adrianople.

[Ennath]

October 26, 1341
Byzantine Civil War, Part 2

At the same time, the regency's alliance with Dushan was paying dividends for the Serbian ruler alone, as he had free rein to occupy all of Macedonia and Epirus. By the end of 1345, only Thessalonika, held by the Zealots, Serres and the surrounding region, which remained loyal to the regency, along with Berroia, which still held out under Manuel Kantakouzenos, remained outside Serbian control.

These developments placed the regency in difficulty. In spite of Apokaukos’ adroit management of the state's finances, the devastation caused by the prolonged wars had emptied the treasury. In August 1343, Empress Anna was forced to pawn the crown jewels to Venice. In addition, Turkish ravages in Thrace led to a scarcity of food in Constantinople. Hoping for Western aid, Anna appealed to the Pope, promising submission to his authority.

In 1344, the regency concluded a further alliance with Bulgaria, which required the surrender of Philippopolis (Plovdiv) and nine other towns in northern Thrace. Nevertheless, after their occupation, Ivan Alexander took no action. At the same time, Momchil, a former brigand whom Kantakouzenos had entrusted with control over the region of Merope in the Rhodope mountains, defected to the regency. In early 1344, Kantakouzenos was deprived of Umur and the bulk of his army, who sailed home to repel a Latin attack on his main harbor, Smyrna (he failed). Nevertheless, Kantakouzenos was able to ward off joint attacks by Dushan and Apokaukos until Umur returned to his aid the next spring at the head of an army of 20,000 men.

Kantakouzenos and Umur raided Bulgaria, then turned against Momchil. The latter had exploited the power vacuum in the Rhodope, an effective no man's land between the Serbs, Bulgarians and Byzantines, to set himself up as a quasi-independent prince. On July 7, 1345, the armies clashed at Peritheorion. Momchil was routed and killed. Soon afterwards, Dushan arrived before Serres and laid siege to the city. Rejecting demands by Kantakouzenos to withdraw, a clash appeared inevitable until the murder of Alexios Apokaukos in Constantinople forced Kantakouzenos to direct his attention there.

In early 1345, Kantakouzenos made an offer of conciliation, but it was rejected. Despite this show of confidence, the regency's position remained insecure and Apokaukos launched a series of proscriptions. He also ordered the construction of a new prison to house political prisoners. On June 11, 1345, while undertaking an inspection of the prison unaccompanied by his bodyguard, Apokaukos was lynched by the prisoners.

When Kantakouzenos heard the news he marched on Constantinople, urged by supporters, who expected that the death of Apokaukos would result in the collapse of the regency. However, the Patriarch and Empress Anna quickly brought the situation under control. At the same time, Kantakouzenos suffered a series of reverses. These began when John Apokaukos, nominal governor of Thessalonica, openly announced his allegiance to Kantakouzenos and his plans to surrender the city. He was immediately thwarted by the Zealots who rose up again and killed him and the other Kantakouzenist sympathizers. Then John Vatatzes, who had defected to Kantakouzenos the year before, once more switched sides. He attempted to take some of Kantakouzenos' Turkish allies and a few Thracian cities with him, but was murdered soon afterwards. Finally, Kantakouzenos lost the support of his most crucial ally, Umur of Aydin, who left with his army to confront the crusaders in Smyrna. Kantakouzenos replaced him by allying himself with the Emir of Saruhan and, more importantly, Orhan I of the rising Ottoman emirate in Bithynia.

In September 1345, after a long siege, Serres fell to Dushan. The Serbian ruler, who by now controlled about half of the pre-1341 Byzantine realm, was spurred to lay his own claim on the Byzantine throne. On April 16, 1346, he was crowned "Emperor of the Serbs and the Romans" in Skopje, thereby founding the Serbian Empire. This prompted Kantakouzenos, who had only been acclaimed Emperor, to have himself formally crowned in a ceremony held at Adrianople, presided over by the Patriarch of Jerusalem.

For the regency, the situation had become desperate. Empress Anna's requests for aid from foreign powers proved unsuccessful. Only Balik, the ruler of Dobruja, sent an elite force of 1000 men, but they were routed by Kantakouzenos' general George Phakrases. The emirate of Saruhan offered a more substantial force of 6000 men in the summer of 1346, but instead of fighting, they plundered Thrace and then defected to Kantakouzenos. Revenue remained scarce, the Genoese once again seized the imperial possessions of Chios and Phocaea, and on May 19, 1346, a part of the Hagia Sophia collapsed, a terrible omen in the eyes of the capital's inhabitants.

By the summer of 1346, Kantakouzenos stood on the verge of victory. He left Thrace under the control of his son Matthew and moved on to Selymbria, close to Constantinople. He did not attac, but waited for almost a year for the city to surrender. As the months passed, and the privations in Constantinople increased, the pro-Kantakouzenos faction grew as the Empress refused even to consider negotiations. Twice agents were sent to assassinate Kantakouzenos, but failed. The Empress eventually fell out with Patriarch John Kalekas, who was deposed in a synod on February 2, 1347. On the same night, supporters of Kantakouzenos opened the disused Golden Gate, and he entered the city with 1000 men. Meeting no resistance, his troops surrounded the Palace of Blachernae, the imperial residence, the next morning, but the Empress refused to surrender for several days, still fearful of the fate that awaited her. Kantakouzenos' men grew impatient and stormed part of the palace complex, and John V persuaded his mother to accept a settlement.

On February 8, 1347, the war formally ended with an agreement making Kantakouzenos senior emperor for ten years, after which he and John V would reign as equals. Kantakouzenos also promised to pardon anyone who had fought against him. Despite the moderation shown by Kantakouzenos, the deal did not gain universal acceptance. Supporters of the Palaiologoi still distrusted him, while his own partisans would have preferred to depose the Palaiologoi outright and install the Kantakouzenoi as the reigning dynasty. Kantakouzenos' eldest son, Matthew, also resented being passed over in favor of John V, and had to be placated with the creation of a semi-autonomous appanage covering much of western Thrace, which doubled as a march against Dushan's Serbia. Of the remaining Byzantine territories, only the Zealots in Thessalonica, now an isolated enclave surrounded by the Serbs, refused to acknowledge the new arrangement, instead leading a de facto independent existence until Kantakouzenos conquered them in 1350.

This did not end the Empire’s troubles. Dushan took the remaining Macedonian strongholds along with Epirus and Thessaly in 1347-48, completing their conquest of the remaining Byzantine holdings in mainland Greece. A war with Genoa stalemated.

Steadily deteriorating relations between Matthew Kantakouzenos, who now ruled eastern Thrace, and John V Palaiologos, who had taken over Matthew's former domain in western Thrace, sowed the seeds of yet another internal war, which broke out in 1352.

By its end in 1357, John Kantakouzenos John VI abdicated and retired to a monastery. Matthew held out in Thrace until 1357, when he too abdicated, leaving John V Palaiologos as the sole master of a rump state.

[danton]

Originally Posted by haroldeye

War Office: Statistics of the Military Effort of the British Empire during the Great War 1914 - 1920. (HMSO 1922, reprinted 1992 by the London Stamp Exchange). Terry Cave: Military Fact Sheets (WFA 1984-1989)

Gives the strength of the British Army in 1914 as,

Regular 247,432
Reg Reserve 145000

Territorials 268777

There were a further 60000 Special reservists (From the old Militia) and troops from the Channel islands, Isle of Wight and Bermuda numbering some 8000.

A fair proportion of British infantry and artillery were on garrison duty across the Empire.

As to the value of the Indian Army Danton, it performed well up to standard in every theatre it fought in.

Thank you for the statistics haroldeye. When deployed in Mesopotamia the British Indian Army was decidedly ill prepared and worse led, fatally so at Kut in 1915.

In the Second World War matters went differently; Indian regiments were crucial. Yet, Wavell and Aukinleck (and some others) were damned as being 'sepoy generals', as Napoleon described one Arthur Wellesley …

Regards.

[haroldeye]

Interesting to find out the actual figures. Many sites had estimets of between 250k and 350k for the Regular Army alone, but that is HMG best guess.

Indian troops fought well wherever they went so long as they were properly led. They distinguished themselves in France (at least until their own offices were gone and the Army moved in officers who were not Indian Army trained), in Gallipoli and East Africa. They fought well in the invasion of Mesopotamia but the whole affair was compromised by some very poor leadership, especially by the Commanding General. The rematch went much better and Indian troops were in the forefront of the battles against the Turks.

I'm surprised when talking of Indian Army Generals you didn't mention Bill Slim, arguably the best British General of the war. And as for Napolean, I believe he only ever met a sepoy general once, and lost to him.