Putin/Ukraine/and other actions

[vinceprince]

Originally Posted by palo5

Probably not, because clearly the future is in the East, not the West

China will soon overtake USA as the world's most powerful economy. No one in the West anticipated that, because they were always short-term thinkers, and still are

Europeans depend on Russian energy. It's sad the problems in Ukraine make delivery probkematic, but it doesn't change the case

In the meantime, the West is trillions in debt to the East

Did you mention the Cold War?

The lesson is, that it works better when we work together

So you see China as Russia's ally?

Lessons from the Cold War? Who invaded Russia? Don't you remember the Red Army crossing the Ussuri River?

Good luck with your superpower neighbour in the future. I'm sure your friends will support you.

[Norkles]

China's economy is going to burst soon. It'll be a repeat of Japan's bubble burst back in 1991 except when China's goes south it'll effect the world. So anyone thinking China is this monolith which will own the future is just wrong. I remember the same kind of attitudes toward Japan back in the mid 80s.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by vinceprince

So you see China as Russia's ally?

Not formallly maybe, but in de-coupling from the US$ they are sure to be allies

[scoundrel]

It will be interesting to see how Sino-Russian ties progress over time. The good new for Russia is that she'll have a steady customer for her energy resources and mineral wealth and timber even if Russia takes to sacrificing chickens to Satan by the light of black candles. The bad news is that China will not pay a right lot compared with either the USA or any of the EU countries. Also, China has vast mineral resources of her own, particularly coal; Russia would like to be able to export coal, especially if she ends up annexing eastern Ukraine, but she won't find much demand in China. America would be a good bet; the authorities in some places in the USA, such as Texas, really don't mind ruining their environment for the next ten thousand generations in exchange for a bit of profit. But that always assumes that Russia and the USA can get past this little local difficulty.

In the longer term, that will inevitably happen. Since when did principles ever get in the way of advantage? Most politicians think that Principles is the heir to the throne of Luxembourg.

I read in the paper today that Frau Merkel was discreetly promoting a peace deal before the destruction of MH17 made things too toxic, in which everyone, including Ukraine and including Britain, was supposed to say "Hey, the Russian annexation of Crimea is legal under international law, why worry?" In return, Russia would "allow" Ukraine to ratify associate status with the EU...pardon me, but who is Russia that she is even allowed to have an opinion on that? Last time I checked, Ukraine was an independent country and allowed to negotiate any trade deals she jolly well wants. Whether its clever of Ukraine to upset her most powerful and important neighbour, the one who sells her the gas to keep her citizens warm in winter is a matter for Russia and Ukraine to discuss as between civilised countries, and Ukraine might find life a bit awkward if Russia charges the full market price for the gas and insists of payment in advance. But to forment rebellion on Ukraine's soil is really asking for trouble, and Russia has now started to see her chickens coming home to roost.

[Attila The Hun]

Originally Posted by Dr Pepper

here's a challenge-to those siding with the separatists-explain to the rest of us here what is different between the current crop of ethnic Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine and the Crimea and the Sudeten Germans in 1938?-both were/are ethic minorities in the countries they reside in, but form local majorities; both consider themselves hard done by and have/had grievances with the central government, and both sought/seek political union with an adjacent larger power to which they feel ethnic ties....

Most of the ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine are actually the majority (along with groups such as Tartars, the majority of which voted to leave the Ukraine too) in their regions and had been for hundreds of years, modern Ukraine is man-made, the areas that make up the Ukraine were just traditional parts of Russia (infact, Russia started in what is now Ukraine, Kiev, before the successor state was established in Moscow, the Grand Duchy of Moscow). They are only a majority because their regions were shuffled into the Ukraine. It is a different situation to that of the Sudeten Germans who were a powerful, elite minority in ''Mittel-Europe'' and had settled in non-German areas. It is a different situation.

The Goryuns, an ethnic Russian group, have lived in Northern Ukraine (Putyvl) before it was part of the Ukraine. The Slobozhanshchina region was originally Tartar, and then Russia before the Ukraine existed, as was Crimea, where even most of the ethnic Ukrainians voted to leave the Ukraine and join the Russian Federation. Also, the areas that join Russia will probably end up better off than any of the groups left in a country dominated by Fascist and Neo-Nazi parties like Svoboda.

A closer parallel would be the Irish wanting to break away from the UK, which they did.

[Attila The Hun]

Originally Posted by carpaths

Yes of course there are a lot of Ukrainian citizens in Eastern Ukraine who even do not speak Ukrainian and do not want to learn this language. The same people live in the Baltic States, they don't want/cannot learn national languages of these states, clash with locals and live in Russian ghetto. Yes they dream about Soviet times when these Baltic States were parts of red empire. But in the ranks of rebels also enrolled mercenaries and former soldiers from Russia. They have enough war experience to confront regular army. These men fight for money. Also the main figures in Donbass are Russian citizens overseen from Moscow.

Regardless of foreign mercenaries, a large number of Ukrainian citizens, many from areas that were reshuffled into the Ukraine for administrative purposes during the Soviet era, want to leave the Ukraine.

It is so black and white that I even don't know how to add it more contrast for you. In fact no region in Ukraine has such right. Ukraine has not any law permitting this kind of votes. In Crimea overwhelming majority voted being in occupation by Russian troops so how can you trust this voting?

I don't care if the Ukraine doesn't have those rights. The people of those regions want to leave the Ukraine and I agree with the will of the people, and the votes were legitimate whether you like it or not. Your Ukrainian nationalism will not make those hard facts go away.

But within EU Russia's policy towards Ukraine supported only by far-right and anti-semitic parties. For example Hungarian neo-Nazi party Yobbik or Serbian neo-Nazies, or Marine Le Pen in France... In fact Putin gets support only from Nazies and ultra-left Marxists.

Ultra-Left Marxists (who were the traditional enemies of Marxist-Leninism, that of the Soviet Union, which were mid-Left Marxists) might indeed support Putin, though most Marxists in Russia do not, and some Nazis might, but Putin is a garden variety conservative populists, unlike many of the Ukrainian parties that wield power in the Ukraine, who are Ultra-Nationalist and Fascist. The fact that parties such as Svoboda can make any gains in the Ukraine tells me that the Ukraine is headed towards a far-right disaster, especially as polls and studies have also shown it to be one of the most anti-Semitic countries in Europe and one which definitely had a habit of denying the Holocaust and using anti-Semitic slurs against Kaganovich.

Tymoshenko was ''smeared'' as Jewish, in fact!

But Svoboda is not in Rada what means they do not control anything in the country.

Svoboda have three seats in the Ukrainian parliament and wield no small amount of power in Galicia.

[TheBare]

Vladimir Putin Traitor to the New World Order says Jacob Rothschild

[carpaths]

Originally Posted by Attila The Hun

Regardless of foreign mercenaries, a large number of Ukrainian citizens, many from areas that were reshuffled into the Ukraine for administrative purposes during the Soviet era, want to leave the Ukraine.

Some Commi want to leave Ukraine? Let them get out.

Originally Posted by Attila The Hun

I don't care if the Ukraine doesn't have those rights.

Sorry, there is the law and everyone must obey the law. If someone refuses - he is a criminal.

Originally Posted by Attila The Hun

Your Ukrainian nationalism will not make those hard facts go away.

Ukrainians get all my support and I live in Eastern Europe but I'm not Ukrainian.

Originally Posted by Attila The Hun

Tymoshenko was ''smeared'' as Jewish, in fact!

In Russia majority of people call Poroshenko "a Jew" in abusive manner.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by carpaths

Ukrainians get all my support and I live in Eastern Europe but I'm not Ukrainian

Ordinary Ukranians have my support too, but not the fascists who target civilians. This has always been a difficult area, and it is better if outsiders stay outside, where they belong

[Meini Hirion]

I'll say say it up-front.

I have No Respect for Putin, nor his fellow Oligarchs who have feasted on the USSR's decaying corpse.

They bought for cents--- the Nationalised Industries and asset-stripped them almost overnight and became Billionaires.
Many fled, many were chased..very few of the "early westerners"..if any... remain domiciled in the "reduced USSR"

The USA is a prime example of such "robber-Barons" -- wealth?..
No restrictions?..No comebacks?..No laws?...No support for the weakest!
LAW actually supported wealth in the USA and probably still does

...Just likea 'reduced Russia'

Look at the Institutions that bear their family names today, and look at how they aquired instant WEALTH ?

But the Oligarchs of Putin's era - the money-grabbers and runners,
came from a longer history..... mainly the UK,
--where it took a bit longer admittedly, but we didn't have Twatter then

So I'm not an apologist for Putin, when I propose that the Ukraine is
Political AND EMOTIONAL.

In the Second World War it was estimated that 20 million USSR civilians and military were killed.

It is estimated because the CIA through "Reader's Digest" and various other NGO sources combatted the early UN research which supported that size of death.

Anyway...Germany took over the Ukraine in WW2
They created a State that felt liberated.
The Ukraine provided the best frontline forces against the USSR
created the feared "Death Squads"..the originals...that infiltrated villages and towns to kill and assasinate any or all pro-Soviet officials.

During the military occupation of Ukraine by Nazi Germany, a large number of Ukrainians chose to cooperate with the Nazis.

Reasons for this generally included resurgent Ukrainian nationalism and aspirations for independence, however these were coupled with rampant racism towards other ethnic groups (such as Tatars, Roma peoples and Poles) as well as a prevailing sentiment of antisemitism.

Ukraine nationalists rally to commemorate Nazi SS division

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-...i-ss-division/

ITV


It is History AND EMOTIONAL to elements in the Russian Heirarchy --imo

A substantial proportion of the 20 million dead were caused by their nearest neighbour and betrayer - the Ukraine.

That Relationship of possible distrust has a History and It Is EMOTIONAL....imo

I don't think for one moment it is about geographical access, to over-run Europe, as certain western media propose - I think this is the old USSR sayings:-

Here and No Further.

A Shield, not a Spear.

Russia is...imo...just being messed up by amateur PR,
{who are no match for CNN / BBC}..when they repeat committee formulated statements, 24 hours later.
And meanwhile. the blokes with guns carry on shooting because they are culturally Russian and may actually not have heard about this guy Putin !

Think about the Oziak village (USA), that thought Lincoln was the President in late 1960s

I hope Putin goes,I really do.

But, hoping this isn't patronising, , a country new to democracy will follow a Fuerher-type figure.
A Re-Builder.

If the US and EU destroy Putin and his Heirarchy, what are the choices?
A guy who really does want to re-capture all the 'lost' USSR lands
- starting in the Ukraine?

Putin doesn't want that imo...it's ...

Here and No Further

He will defend, because History will support him, but he won't advance
because he doesn't need to advance. Shield Not A Spear -- Russian Belief.

I'd like him gone, because he is a 3rd rate Poseur if nothing else...him with his bare-chest shooting animals...jeez..what PR did that ???



The Ukraine is to be resolved, and it may come to "might" over "right"

IMO the Crimea is Russian, culturally and emotionally as much Russian as it was when Alfred, Lord Tennyson..wrote his pre-Dunkirk poem



But, then again this is Putin ennit