The Military History Thread - Page 9

**scoundrel** · 08-18-2012, 04:51 PM

The US government blockade of Cuba is illegal. It violates numerous United Nations resolutions and has no basis in international law. The US government assumes to itself and exercises a false right to punish British citizens and British companies for doing business in Cuba. This extra-territoriality of action by the US government is widely resented across the rest of the world; in particular, Canada and the European Union have called the US government out on this issue, enacting legislation to forbid corporations and citizens from complying with the embargo and to retaliate against US corporations which use Title III of the Helms-Burton Act against EU or Canadian citizens.

The embargo has been in place for decades, achieved nothing except harm to the ordinary people of Cuba. It failed; it deserves to fail. This is the sort of thing which tests the patience of your best friends. The US could do itself a lot of good with its own friends by behaving with some more respect. Forget the haters and foes of the US; they will never change their views and need not be considered. But the US is not now so very powerful that it can afford to bully and disrespect its own friends. As a British citizen I respond really badly to the proposition that the US government tries to tell me that I must not do business with Cuba when there are diplomatic relations between Britain and Cuba and when there is no valid reason why my own country should not trade there. It is ultra vires for a foreign government to dictate that to me and I wish that whenever the US government takes action against a British company or a British citizen to enforce this entirely illegal embargo, my government would have the balls to make a stink about it and retaliate against US individuals and corporations and their interests in Great Britain to punish them for invoking the Helms-Burton Act against British citizens. I know it won't.

Wars have been triggered by such pretensions to authority in other countries. In the 18th Century, such wars happened all the time and Britain was a notable offendor. The Anglo-American War of 1812 started because the British treated US shipping exactly like British shipping and impressed US sailors into the Royal Navy against their will, and impounded US ships which were trading with Napoleon. We showed no respect for the US as a country and for its right to be neutral in our war with France; the USA slapped our face, hard.

**tygrkhat40** · 08-18-2012, 10:13 PM

US policy on Cuba is dictated by a very small minority, the Cuban community of South Florida. Any candidate who dares talk about normalization of relations with Cuba will be guaranteed to lose Florida due to that.

I did hear about one thing that the US embargo on Cuba has done for the Cubans. Due to the lack of modern industrial produced fertilizers has made Cuban farmers way ahead of the rest of the world in organic farming.

bombermouse · 08-18-2012, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tygrkhat40

US policy on Cuba is dictated by a very small minority, the Cuban community of South Florida. Any candidate who dares talk about normalization of relations with Cuba will be guaranteed to lose Florida due to that.

I did hear about one thing that the US embargo on Cuba has done for the Cubans. Due to the lack of modern industrial produced fertilizers has made Cuban farmers way ahead of the rest of the world in organic farming.

The embargo on Cuba reminds me of the war on drugs. We've been doing the same thing for 52 years with no results but no doubt it will work if we keep it up for another 50 years or so.

**Puhbear69** · 08-18-2012, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bombermouse

The embargo on Cuba reminds me of the war on drugs. We've been doing the same thing for 52 years with no results but no doubt it will work if we keep it up for another 50 years or so.

Have a look at post #67. It makes a mockery this of "war on drugs"!

bombermouse · 08-19-2012, 02:37 AM

Some words on Afghanistan, it's best understood as a geographical area rather than as a country. Its borders describe an area where it's too much work for any of the surrounding powers to maintain control. The Afghani government can usually control the lowlands with some confidence but in the highlands the tribes make the rules.

**haroldeye** · 08-19-2012, 06:26 AM

The Cuban embargo is all the more sickening for the way the Americans ignore it.

I believe Miss Lewinsky and Mr Clinton were fond of the odd Havanna.

**savage560** · 08-21-2012, 02:38 PM

Getting back to the involvement in Afghanistan,it appears to be going similarly to the Vietnam conflict.Insurgents or at least ,sympathizers to the Mujahideen, seem to be infiltrating many levels of the US forces who are there.Like mentioned here its never been truly one cohesive country, which the Russians found out 30 years ago, just a smattering of tribal clans.I don't know how long the US plans to stay,they,like the Russians,are trying to bring a 7th century counrty,into the 21st,on a crash course.

The Russians,by accounts I read,were training & educating people there of all genders & walks of life,& seemed to be making headway,with the Babrak Karmal government, in many ways.But Carter & to a greater extent, the Reagan & Bush administrations,was trying to spread the US form of capitalism & dominance.But the result was instead of reforming the country to a modern state,the religio fanatics brought it back to its primative ,superstitious 7th century roots.All this in trying to defeat the Soviets at any cost at the price of the people in this country & now trying to assert US WW dominance

Just as in Vietnam & Cuba,you give the overwhelming poor majority in a country a choice of being dominated by imperialist, laisses faire capitalist powers, & be downtroden by the extremely few elite ,who these powers put in office,as they were, or a change that sounds good,like socialism,they will choose the latter, every time.Even Pat Buchanon,as conservative as he is,agreed with this.

Female doctors,teachers,professors, & technicians etc.,all were given a chance in Afghanistan to practice their expertise ,under the Karmal goverment.Now the US comes in & its ancient traditions of forbiding women to work have reaked havoc on a country that desperately needed professionals of this kind.The US must learn that self determination & not US millitary force backing tyranical elite regimes, is the answer for the people of most countries.

It seems like Obama's administration is doing a little better job at realizing this than many previous ones.At least he has'nt opened up new major deployments of US invasions.BTW I've talked to quite a few GIs that were stationed in Afghanistan & Iraq,the majority feel that the vast number of the people want self determination, & not dominance by forign powers.

**uli12345** · 08-21-2012, 02:43 PM

One aspect is good: We Germans and other nation do enjoy our holidays in Cuba!
No American tourists!

The Washington Post:

In July of 1963 the U.S. Government issued the Trading With the Enemy Act, which outlines any and all interactions permitted between the United States and Cuba. Basically, the following people are eligible for consideration to travel to Cuba (taken from the U.S. Department of the Treasury and Office of Foreign Assets Control):

Journalists for a news reporting agency and their accompanying personnel
Official government travelers
Members of international organizations of which the United States is also a member (traveling on business)
Academic related travelers
Cuban Americans by birth or by marriage who are visiting relatives (this is only applicable once every three years)

This list is not exhaustive but rather a general idea of the kind of people that are even considered for review to receive permission to travel to Cuba. By no means should you attempt to travel without receiving consent simply because you find similarities between yourself and the above list of people. If you are caught visiting Cuba without an approved license, you will face hefty problems.

Time and time again, people have fallen victim to Cuban tours through foreign organizations. These clients often claim to be unaware that there even is an embargo. The ramifications for misunderstanding or misinterpreting the law are quite severe. Foreigners are allowed to go to Cuba and are not required to understand American law regarding the matter. As I am unaware of many foreign laws, I am certain many foreigners are unaware of American laws; therefore it is our responsibility to ensure that we are aware of our eligibility to travel before signing on with foreign groups. If the only offers you find are through other countries, than perhaps you should question why they aren’t available in America.
Fines for visiting Cuba without the proper license can be as high as $65,000 and there may even be talk of jail time. However, the fines generally seem to be closer to $7,500 and can be negotiated down. I have yet to hear of jail time being served or even sentenced to someone traveling to Cuba. However, the consequences can be professionally detrimental should you hope to work for the U.S. Government.

Best regards
ULI1234

**palo5** · 08-21-2012, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by savage560

...The Russians,by accounts I read,were training & educating people there of all genders & walks of life...

It's exactly as you say

The USSR gave them billions of aid long before 1979 - infrastructure, education, you name it. But too many Afghans didn't want it. They particularly hated education of girls, among other things

But it seems they like Russians more than Americans. Russians still work in Afghanistan in many different jobs. Often, western-looking people are killed in ambushes, and Afghans don't care where they dump the corpses. But if you contact and say you want your 'Russian corpse' back, they say "Oh sure, sorry, we thought he was American"

I believe this

**deepsepia** · 08-21-2012, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by palo5

But it seems they like Russians more than Americans. Russians still work in Afghanistan in many different jobs. Often, western-looking people are killed in ambushes, and Afghans don't care where they dump the corpses. But if you contact and say you want your 'Russian corpse' back, they say "Oh sure, sorry, we thought he was American"

I believe this

. . . and this passes for being "well liked" in Afghanistan. What an awful place.

I just despair when someone tells me that Afghanistan has some "strategic importance"

If Afghanistan is "strategically important", doesn't that pretty much denude the word "important" of any meaning?

Are the Maldives, "strategically important" too?

Of for that matter -- what isn't strategically important?

08-18-2012, 04:51 PM	#81
scoundrel Moderator Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: England Posts: 6,052 Thanks: 65,785 Thanked 61,243 Times in 7,088 Posts	The US government blockade of Cuba is illegal. It violates numerous United Nations resolutions and has no basis in international law. The US government assumes to itself and exercises a false right to punish British citizens and British companies for doing business in Cuba. This extra-territoriality of action by the US government is widely resented across the rest of the world; in particular, Canada and the European Union have called the US government out on this issue, enacting legislation to forbid corporations and citizens from complying with the embargo and to retaliate against US corporations which use Title III of the Helms-Burton Act against EU or Canadian citizens. The embargo has been in place for decades, achieved nothing except harm to the ordinary people of Cuba. It failed; it deserves to fail. This is the sort of thing which tests the patience of your best friends. The US could do itself a lot of good with its own friends by behaving with some more respect. Forget the haters and foes of the US; they will never change their views and need not be considered. But the US is not now so very powerful that it can afford to bully and disrespect its own friends. As a British citizen I respond really badly to the proposition that the US government tries to tell me that I must not do business with Cuba when there are diplomatic relations between Britain and Cuba and when there is no valid reason why my own country should not trade there. It is ultra vires for a foreign government to dictate that to me and I wish that whenever the US government takes action against a British company or a British citizen to enforce this entirely illegal embargo, my government would have the balls to make a stink about it and retaliate against US individuals and corporations and their interests in Great Britain to punish them for invoking the Helms-Burton Act against British citizens. I know it won't. Wars have been triggered by such pretensions to authority in other countries. In the 18th Century, such wars happened all the time and Britain was a notable offendor. The Anglo-American War of 1812 started because the British treated US shipping exactly like British shipping and impressed US sailors into the Royal Navy against their will, and impounded US ships which were trading with Napoleon. We showed no respect for the US as a country and for its right to be neutral in our war with France; the USA slapped our face, hard. __________________ A ship in harbour is perfectly safe. But that's not what ships are for.

08-18-2012, 10:13 PM	#82
tygrkhat40 Moderator Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: The City of Good Neighbors Posts: 3,720 Thanks: 47,097 Thanked 33,087 Times in 3,725 Posts	US policy on Cuba is dictated by a very small minority, the Cuban community of South Florida. Any candidate who dares talk about normalization of relations with Cuba will be guaranteed to lose Florida due to that. I did hear about one thing that the US embargo on Cuba has done for the Cubans. Due to the lack of modern industrial produced fertilizers has made Cuban farmers way ahead of the rest of the world in organic farming. __________________

08-21-2012, 02:43 PM	#88
uli12345 Sheriff Peppers Spokesman Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Bavaria Posts: 1,957 Thanks: 63,225 Thanked 68,352 Times in 1,968 Posts	One aspect is good: We Germans and other nation do enjoy our holidays in Cuba! No American tourists! The Washington Post: In July of 1963 the U.S. Government issued the Trading With the Enemy Act, which outlines any and all interactions permitted between the United States and Cuba. Basically, the following people are eligible for consideration to travel to Cuba (taken from the U.S. Department of the Treasury and Office of Foreign Assets Control): Journalists for a news reporting agency and their accompanying personnel Official government travelers Members of international organizations of which the United States is also a member (traveling on business) Academic related travelers Cuban Americans by birth or by marriage who are visiting relatives (this is only applicable once every three years) This list is not exhaustive but rather a general idea of the kind of people that are even considered for review to receive permission to travel to Cuba. By no means should you attempt to travel without receiving consent simply because you find similarities between yourself and the above list of people. If you are caught visiting Cuba without an approved license, you will face hefty problems. Time and time again, people have fallen victim to Cuban tours through foreign organizations. These clients often claim to be unaware that there even is an embargo. The ramifications for misunderstanding or misinterpreting the law are quite severe. Foreigners are allowed to go to Cuba and are not required to understand American law regarding the matter. As I am unaware of many foreign laws, I am certain many foreigners are unaware of American laws; therefore it is our responsibility to ensure that we are aware of our eligibility to travel before signing on with foreign groups. If the only offers you find are through other countries, than perhaps you should question why they aren’t available in America. Fines for visiting Cuba without the proper license can be as high as $65,000 and there may even be talk of jail time. However, the fines generally seem to be closer to $7,500 and can be negotiated down. I have yet to hear of jail time being served or even sentenced to someone traveling to Cuba. However, the consequences can be professionally detrimental should you hope to work for the U.S. Government. Best regards ULI1234 Last edited by uli12345; 08-21-2012 at 02:55 PM..

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08-19-2012, 02:37 AM	#85
bombermouse Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 177 Thanks: 3,058 Thanked 1,595 Times in 188 Posts	Some words on Afghanistan, it's best understood as a geographical area rather than as a country. Its borders describe an area where it's too much work for any of the surrounding powers to maintain control. The Afghani government can usually control the lowlands with some confidence but in the highlands the tribes make the rules.

08-19-2012, 06:26 AM	#86
haroldeye Vintage Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 996 Thanks: 12,457 Thanked 7,472 Times in 1,004 Posts	The Cuban embargo is all the more sickening for the way the Americans ignore it. I believe Miss Lewinsky and Mr Clinton were fond of the odd Havanna.

08-21-2012, 02:38 PM	#87
savage560 Vintage Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: the south US near the west Posts: 844 Thanks: 4,270 Thanked 5,514 Times in 842 Posts	Getting back to the involvement in Afghanistan,it appears to be going similarly to the Vietnam conflict.Insurgents or at least ,sympathizers to the Mujahideen, seem to be infiltrating many levels of the US forces who are there.Like mentioned here its never been truly one cohesive country, which the Russians found out 30 years ago, just a smattering of tribal clans.I don't know how long the US plans to stay,they,like the Russians,are trying to bring a 7th century counrty,into the 21st,on a crash course. The Russians,by accounts I read,were training & educating people there of all genders & walks of life,& seemed to be making headway,with the Babrak Karmal government, in many ways.But Carter & to a greater extent, the Reagan & Bush administrations,was trying to spread the US form of capitalism & dominance.But the result was instead of reforming the country to a modern state,the religio fanatics brought it back to its primative ,superstitious 7th century roots.All this in trying to defeat the Soviets at any cost at the price of the people in this country & now trying to assert US WW dominance Just as in Vietnam & Cuba,you give the overwhelming poor majority in a country a choice of being dominated by imperialist, laisses faire capitalist powers, & be downtroden by the extremely few elite ,who these powers put in office,as they were, or a change that sounds good,like socialism,they will choose the latter, every time.Even Pat Buchanon,as conservative as he is,agreed with this. Female doctors,teachers,professors, & technicians etc.,all were given a chance in Afghanistan to practice their expertise ,under the Karmal goverment.Now the US comes in & its ancient traditions of forbiding women to work have reaked havoc on a country that desperately needed professionals of this kind.The US must learn that self determination & not US millitary force backing tyranical elite regimes, is the answer for the people of most countries. It seems like Obama's administration is doing a little better job at realizing this than many previous ones.At least he has'nt opened up new major deployments of US invasions.BTW I've talked to quite a few GIs that were stationed in Afghanistan & Iraq,the majority feel that the vast number of the people want self determination, & not dominance by forign powers.