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Old June 2nd, 2017, 06:45 AM   #50
Arturo2nd
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Originally Posted by howerd View Post
Thanks for taking the time answering my comments Brian, here are the questions I'm left with on hearing your thoughts:

Sure but hopes need some justifiable basis as do opinions otherwise we're just wishful thinking.

Yes so do I but sometimes to avoid the same errors you made in the past you have to question whether you're means of assessing reality are justified otherwise you'll keep on guessing & keep on failing.

OK maybe he did & even Professor Richard Feynman said at first you guess an answer: you intuit it indeed & 99% of the time or more it's wrong - it's only when you test your intuitions to destruction can you discover which 1% (if it's even that much) that's left standing.

Well now you are trying to shift your burden of evidence onto me & I never claimed we ever have 100% water tight 'knowledge' of anything at all did I? All I'm saying is that despite not being able to be 100% certain of anything we can still be reasonably certain of many things if there's at least something that can be independently confirmed about it with a high standard of verification & that's as good as anything gets so why demand perfection when you can still have a close second?

That's incredibly vague answer. What's the most compelling experience you can cite that's convinced you it's true? Anything particularly robust beyond alternative interpretation?

I'm sure they did but other great figures & popular religions in history have had equally unsupportable ideas too so what makes his beliefs obviously far better? There must be some reason you consider these claims better than those claims or do you just like the sound of them more?

OK so why was she convinced then? - Because she too liked the sound of it from someone she had an inkling also harbored esoteric wisdom as well? - Is that really a good enough reason?

So if I just don't get this explanation & I'd say it's actually just a naked claim that's confirmation it's probably true yeah? That sounds a lot more like confirmation bias & circular reasoning to me. Why am I wrong? Because I lack the wisdom to just "get" it's truth?

So if we rather like the ideas we find that we rather like, that's a sure sign it's justified then? Hmmmm...

Yes a testable one. One which is robust enough to be independently verified. This is why we behave as we do:

Yes if, but how could we be pretty damn sure that we really have become enlightened rather than projecting our existing beliefs onto what we notice 'hits' confirmations & doesn't even register blind spots which disconfirm them? Don't you think self doubt is as important if not even more important a strategy if we are genuinely committed to believing as many true things & dismissing any false things, whatever they may be & regardless of whether we 'rather like the idea.'?

Or it may just be coincidence.

So you can doubt others! But can you turn the same skepticism onto your own beliefs with equal skepticism too?

OK perhaps that's how he imagined 'error' to be however isn't a simpler explanation - with less assumptions built into it - 'error' is a state of alienation with the nature of reality therefore you keep making guesses about the nature of reality which aren't based on evidence but by projecting an incorrect assumption about reality on to what you think you are seeing going on around you & therefore that's the cause of your errors? e.g, The philosopher Wittgenstein was in conversation with one of his students who he asked:

W:
Why do you think that people once thought that they could see the sun go around the earth?

S: Well I suppose it's because that's what it looks like.

W: But does it? - Then how would a static sun appear when observed from the surface of an immense spinning sphere?

i.e. If we assume in advance we know the nature of what reality has to be like we may very well be in danger of making the error of 'projecting' our evidence free assumption onto what we think 'reality' is & consequently create a self induced delusion based on what you assumed to be the case unconsciously (or consciously) in advance - without good, independently verifiable evidence for your assumption.

Well yes we certainly can create our own hell & sometimes it can result from not caring that much if our beliefs are supportable. Those who can make you believe absurdities, could also make you make errors in life which is why we must never imagine we are above delusion ourselves. I'm not which is why I'm happier to admit I don't know things than feel very sure I do but not be able to know exactly how I got there beyond finding an idea appealing. To me that starts alarm bells ringing & a voice in my head screams 'Warning! Potential delusions breaking through the doubt firewall!' - Now I'm not against letting anything through if I've tested it very very carefully but 'carefully' has to mean whether I love it or hate it.

OK thanks Brian I look forward to it!
Howerd, I really don't understand why you have such a problem with what I believe. I have changed my opinion several times and really don't take the whole reincarnation thing all that seriously. I did have a flash of memories during a meditation that I was an executioner/torturer in medieval Germany. Another time I caught snippets of being a woman or women with children. Are they real or is there another explanation? We know that the descendants of lab rats who have learned to run mazes learn to run mazes much more quickly than lab rats whose ancestors did not run mazes. Is it possible that memories are somehow transferred in the DNA? I don't know, but assume that science may one day find out. I have an arthritic neck, the result of multiple car wrecks in my late teens and twenties. I joke that my neck is evidence of multiple hangings in previous lives, which were no doubt richly deserved. Certainly that joke/explanation has some probability of being true, but is not testable. I really don't think we have answers. So, I choose a set of beliefs that many smart and spiritually adept people have espoused and use them to laugh at my pretensions. If you choose to believe something else, it is perfectly fine with me. You should choose to believe something else as your experiences are not mine. However, given the known perils of confirmation bias, we must reject any notion that our beliefs have universal application if we wish to be honest with ourselves.

I believe in the existence of a spiritual being present in the universe because I have had multiple occasions of experiencing that presence over many years. You are convinced that I am delusional. I really don't see how you can judge my experience given that you haven't had my experience, but that's OK. I am perfectly fine with you believing whatever you want as long as you follow our customary and legal agreements that each of us is free to believe whatever we want as long as we don't infringe on others rights. (Which is why so many of us strongly dislike fundamentalist Christians and those Muslims who seek to impose their habits and medieval values on us.)

The Special Ed Planet, frankly I thought the complete range of this lady's belief was absolutely bonkers, but adopted the special ed planet hypothesis because it appeals to my sense of humor and deflates my ego. I often struggle with being a know-it-all, and am grateful for reminders of my fallibility (even if they do usually really piss me off at first.)

David Hume in Treatise of Human Nature proceeded to demolish pretty much all claims to knowledge and even common claims to personal identity. He then proceeded to advise embracing custom as the best guide to behavior. After a lifetime of studying ethics and morals, I agree with Hume's notion that ethics and morals are grounded in our relationships with each other and have nothing to to do with God. Since I have an experience of the reality of the Divine, I would like to explore the whole question of theology free of the baggage of a dozen years of Catholic schooling, but recognize that Aquinas' framework is too deeply embedded to do so. Besides, Thomas Aquinas was a really deep and profound thinker and needs to be respected.

Anyway, that's enough for now. I've gone on too long already.
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