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**Arturo2nd** · July 13th, 2017, 11:11 AM

I have been thinking and understand your arguments. It cannot be denied that the experience of large governments and centralized state control (e.g. USSR, Maoist China, Nazi Germany) is really ugly. I have been appalled to discover what some of our liberal and progressive icons have really been up to. Our little discussion keeps wandering off to other issues and into the unforeseen consequences of the Constitutional Convention's work.

Here is a little throwaway observation: http://vintage-erotica-forum.com/sho...8&postcount=95

It might help you to understand my views to know that I was raised in a large family and that I was brought up Roman Catholic and spent years in their schools. My instinctive understanding is that we are part of a larger community and society and our individual wants and desires are subordinate to the success of the larger group. Another core value is that character development is far more important than wealth accumulation. A third is that surplus wealth is to be shared with those less fortunate. It is almost funny that you spent many years working for the government and grew to greatly mistrust it and I spent years working in Corporate America and came to believe that we must do everything possible to resist the influence of corporations.

But I continue to digress. You have failed to persuade me that the primary motive of the creators of the U.S. Constitution was something other than maintaining and expanding their political power and wealth. I acknowledge that I omitted mentioning that most of the delegates were also committed to framing a republican form of government. Alexander Hamilton was the most notable and vocal advocate of building an empire and the United States eventually taking a place among the great powers.

Thomas Jefferson was a man of many contradictions. His hypocrisy and inconsistency was constantly noted in the press, in the political speeches of the day, and by biographers and historians ever since. He was not, however, a delegate to the convention and played no direct part in its framing.

July 13th, 2017, 11:11 AM	#93
Arturo2nd Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Oakland, California, United States. I have a beautful view of the BART tracks and I-980 Posts: 8,955 Thanks: 103,061 Thanked 151,470 Times in 8,946 Posts	I have been thinking and understand your arguments. It cannot be denied that the experience of large governments and centralized state control (e.g. USSR, Maoist China, Nazi Germany) is really ugly. I have been appalled to discover what some of our liberal and progressive icons have really been up to. Our little discussion keeps wandering off to other issues and into the unforeseen consequences of the Constitutional Convention's work. Here is a little throwaway observation: http://vintage-erotica-forum.com/sho...8&postcount=95 It might help you to understand my views to know that I was raised in a large family and that I was brought up Roman Catholic and spent years in their schools. My instinctive understanding is that we are part of a larger community and society and our individual wants and desires are subordinate to the success of the larger group. Another core value is that character development is far more important than wealth accumulation. A third is that surplus wealth is to be shared with those less fortunate. It is almost funny that you spent many years working for the government and grew to greatly mistrust it and I spent years working in Corporate America and came to believe that we must do everything possible to resist the influence of corporations. But I continue to digress. You have failed to persuade me that the primary motive of the creators of the U.S. Constitution was something other than maintaining and expanding their political power and wealth. I acknowledge that I omitted mentioning that most of the delegates were also committed to framing a republican form of government. Alexander Hamilton was the most notable and vocal advocate of building an empire and the United States eventually taking a place among the great powers. Thomas Jefferson was a man of many contradictions. His hypocrisy and inconsistency was constantly noted in the press, in the political speeches of the day, and by biographers and historians ever since. He was not, however, a delegate to the convention and played no direct part in its framing.