Nothing to do with Nato, harold. It's the fact that European states don't have the extremist governments that started evil wars in the first place. Nato has no credit for anything, except making arms manufacturers rich. In every other sphere it's been a US-led plague

I'm in favor of UK staying in, because I like the situation of Europeans being together, and dislike the thought of Britain clinging more tightly to America like they're in a 1940 time-warp

But if they do vote to leave, it would be interesting to see if Scotland seceded, a Labor government killed off the nukes, and they surrendered their no-longer-justified permanent UNSC seat. France doesn't deserve one either, of course -- they should be kicked off too, imho

When we leave, Scotland will have another referendum to leave which they will probably accept just to stay in the EU because they've got bupkiss chance at keeping any oil and fish without the EU backing them up against the UK and with the price of oil in the toilet they would get a lot out of the EU, but Cameron didn't follow through on those empty promises and they are unlikely to fall for them twice. So that will be two millstones from around our necks for the price of one.

The icing on the cake will be Boris Johnson for PM instead of David Cameron's nominated attack dog Dick Cheney in disguise Theresa May, not Teresa May.

Don't think of it as a referendum on staying in the EU, think of it as the referendum on permission to enter that we never got. Think of it as the referendum on kicking Scotland out the union that we never got. Think of it as the decision on how the Conservative Party evolves, to a more caring liberal conservatism or towards an overbearing totalitarianistic wannabe dictatorship like the GOP.

And if that wasn't enough consider that if we vote to stay in, the only conceivable way out except for Europe wide war is to vote for UKIP to be our government. One Trick Pony does not a good government make.

Now think of all the countries that aren't in the EU. That's right, there's loads of them, and they're doing just fine too.

Yes but not if you depart. It's the neoliberal economic policy that has led the EU (Britain included) to a dead end. The British establishment (the Tories in particular) used to be the pioneers of privatisation, deregulation, union busting and austerity measures as a means of compensation for the state's losses in revenues and the people are the ones who had and still have to pay the price for this kind of vulture economy. But the initial hopes of the establishment didn't work out. They lost the race against Germany, who has come to dominate Europe after the annexation of East Germany, so they're whining now.

No, you're missing the point. I watched some TV Journo's interviewing some Market Traders in the North of England. The people they were interviewing were predominantly of Asian origin and they were complaining about hordes of East Europeans coming in! Blacks and Browns complaining about whites nicking all their jobs, lowering the wages, etc. What I'm saying is don't make the common assumption that it's just White Anglo Saxon Protestant. It's a lot more complicated than that.
I even did a straw poll among family and friends, some were in and some were out, irrespective of politics.
Myself, I'm still on the fence, but I would probably vote to stay in, if only to stop the f*****g Scottish Nationalists gaining any advantage.
And as for the opposition, Jeremiah Corbyn is the biggest two-faced c**t of them all, having voted to leave in 1975:(:(:mad:
He has basically said nothing, just bleated about workers rights and letting every migrant and economic refugee on the planet in.
He should study Chavez and Maduro on how to really bankrupt a country.
In a conversation with a Belgian years ago, He said that the Belgians and the Germans called the Brits:'Island monkeys'. He was right, we are, I took it as a compliment, he looked baffled.;)

The point to remember here, whatever your political and economic preferences, is that anything bad can be fixed, so long as you have your political independence. Bad economic policies can be changed, bad laws can be repealed, bad institutions can be removed or replaced. But these rely on two things; your people and their sovereignty.

If you lose those, you've lost permanently. History is full of references to peoples and nations who disappeared. Don't let it happen to us. This is fundamental stuff, it is not politics as usual, it is not a short term economic decision. This is existential.

It is unlikely that the EU, if it achieves its aims of unification, will be a long-lived entity. But it will have lasted long enough to eradicate the nation states and peoples of Europe, and there will be no getting them back.

This is the biggest issue in centuries. We must not make the wrong decision.

John Perkins: Confession of an Economic Hitman

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-a6jzU0YgQ

Interesting, isn't it? :)

Speaking of sovereignty. The real danger is often overlooked. Its Name is TTIP.

http://corporateeurope.org/pressrele...come-back-dead

With TTIP there is no such thing as a sovereign state.

Arthur Jensen Network 1976

You have meddled with the primal forces of nature, Mr. Beale, and I won't have it! Is that clear? You think you've merely stopped a business deal. That is not the case! The Arabs have taken billions of dollars out of this country, and now they must put it back! It is ebb and flow, tidal gravity! It is ecological balance! You are an old man who thinks in terms of nations and peoples. There are no nations. There are no peoples. There are no Russians. There are no Arabs. There are no third worlds. There is no West. There is only one holistic system of systems, one vast and immane, interwoven, interacting, multivariate, multinational dominion of dollars. Petro-dollars, electro-dollars, multi-dollars, reichmarks, rins, rubles, pounds, and shekels. It is the international system of currency which determines the totality of life on this planet. That is the natural order of things today. That is the atomic and subatomic and galactic structure of things today! And YOU have meddled with the primal forces of nature, and YOU... WILL... ATONE! Am I getting through to you, Mr. Beale? You get up on your little twenty-one inch screen and howl about America and democracy. There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM, and ITT, and AT&T, and DuPont, Dow, Union Carbide, and Exxon. Those are the nations of the world today. What do you think the Russians talk about in their councils of state, Karl Marx? They get out their linear programming charts, statistical decision theories, minimax solutions, and compute the price-cost probabilities of their transactions and investments, just like we do. We no longer live in a world of nations and ideologies, Mr. Beale. The world is a college of corporations, inexorably determined by the immutable bylaws of business. The world is a business, Mr. Beale. It has been since man crawled out of the slime. And our children will live, Mr. Beale, to see that... perfect world... in which there's no war or famine, oppression or brutality. One vast and ecumenical holding company, for whom all men will work to serve a common profit, in which all men will hold a share of stock. All necessities provided, all anxieties tranquilized, all boredom amused. And I have chosen you, Mr. Beale, to preach this evangel.


It will only get worse

The vast majority of Scots don't want another independence referendum and Mrs Krankie knows it - the outcome is likely to be the same as the last one and she knows that too.

No I think we lazy Jocks will be around for a while yet , spending that lovely English taxpayers money.

I've got a song for you...;)david cassidy i think i love you official video

We like what we are used to, Okoto. But if there should be another Scotland referendum we English might want to be enfranchised too.:thumbsup: An independent Scotland governed by the SNP might leave the Union in protest at an EU exit decision, only to find that the EU doesn't open its arms and wallet. One should remember that Britain is fifth biggest contributor. Scotland would be back of the pack; but would have a lot of spending. Other EU countries might not want to see her at the table.