ID Projects, ID Sheets & ID CSVs ( *** Discussion *** )
 

hi folks

i want to start putting down some permanent names on models already identified but known under more than one name. these are the first two i want to deal with. i'll say what i think then anyone else can come in with an opinion and hopefully we will come to an agreement.

.A, 1296a, Marta, Monica Sales, , aka Thunde
.A, 1296c, Gigi, Solange Yi Lon, ,

Solange Yi Lon has a thread here under 'Solange Hop' and her main entry at egafd is 'Solange Hop' therefore I will change it to that if no one objects.

Monica Sales does not have a thread, but is known as 'Thunde' at egafd, therefore i will again change it in the list unless someone has a good reason to keep it as MS.

Re: Name Changes
 

Hi Rob
I think firstly you need to decide rules for deciding on which name should take precedence for a models screen name, eg. imdb, egafd, wikipedia, models own website. In an attempt to avoid future arguments as to whick of a models aliases to use.

Secondly I think that a csv just listing model names should be constructed (I'm happy to start work on one) proposed format:
.SN, Screen Name, Birth Name, Birthdate, Birthplace, Gender, Comments, aka1, aka2, akaN

Where "Screen Name" is a unique name we decide on using for the Model (given our naming convention).
Birth Name, Birth Date, Birth Place will not be known for many actresses but I see no reason why this information shouldn't be included.
Comments can be things like external links to listings in IMDB etc. although this info could be contained in a seperate list?
And finally any aliases for the actress

This way all publications (image sets, mags, film, and playing cards) can link to a unique name without the current concurrency problems.
BB

I aggree to a CSV ( it would be very useful for longer or combined aka names imo ),

but I have to disagree to post personal datas like 'Birth Name'. No datas should lead direct to a real person.

The CSV should have a static format - all akas should be separated in one cell perhaps with a ';'

Please see the Actor category here.

This has existed for a long time and I think now is a good time to start using it. The format is very similar to BB's suggestion. Comments should be the last field always. I added the Aliases field today. I have no problem with Real Name, but this could be left blank if people object to it. (Very few real names are known anyway.)

The logical Type for Actor is .A and so the existing .A list should be renamed .PA (for Photoset Actor).

I tend to agree with you, some birth names are so well known that it would seem harmless to include, however some may not be well known and I don't think we'd be able to formulate rules for when we should include the info and when we shouldn't, there are nutters out there and we don't won't to aid them.

Simple, easy to implement, nice suggestion!

Having given this a bit more thought I think a links field should be added seperated by semi-colons ; destinct from the comments field.

Finally, whatever name is assigned for the ID field should not be changed EVER.

i did have rules for this but there has been some slippage. the rules were that for usa/can/south america iafd would take precedence, for uk bgafd, and the rest of europe egafd. any others would have to be agreed upon.

however the biggest hurdle and the main cause of the slippage is that egafd/bgafd and even sometimes iafd change the main identification name based on the number of appearances under that name they have listed. this often leads to use of generic names like georgina, tina, etc, etc or names that are different to the most commonly known names. there are also a few that don't appear on the websites eg 'Zoe'@fiona cooper.

i agree that once a name is decided it should not be changed but that rule can't stand in all circumstances. for instance i don't think 'Barbara' can be left as 'Tina[16]'@egafd should a more unique identification turm up.

i don't think we can get this naming perfect but it does need to be agreed and the only way i can see this happening is to go through each of the names and agreeing the ones that can remain as a permanent id and then identifying the few that may possibly change in the future.

we also need to find a way of 'labelling' all the cc classic girls that don't have a current cc classic name.

i see nothing wrong with this except that aliases in some cases will go on forever - Maria Szolontai anyone? and by the way that is one that has changed the main name also!
http://www.egafd.co.uk/actresses/details.php/id/m0177

Just wondering what the cut-off point is for being described as "CC Classic" because I wouldn't have thought that Lilly would qualify as her sets were published 1989-1992.

Yes although we have not defined the cut off point for cc classic i think there is a good chance that a video id will turn up for her, which is why I haven't added the Lilly id yet. This was also the reason for not using 'Barbara' for Tina[16]. and I was also reluctant to use 'Beth', but was less certain anything better would turn up for her.

There was definitely a stylistic change for the photosets around the early to mid eighties. i think somewhere around there should be the cut off point. i'm happy to take guidance on someone in possession of the magazines themselves to advise on this?

Jens Theander quit in the summer of 1985, then the Candy Film Studio was shut down in 1986, but the use of homegrown Danish stuff had stopped even before he left.

Actor CSV format
 

Actor category is currently defined here as follows:

Actor
Type
ID
Gender
Professional Name
Aliases
Real Name
Date of Birth
Place of Birth
Nationality
Comments
______________________________________

Proposed future Actor format:

Actor
Type
ID
Gender
Professional Name
Aliases
Date of Birth
Nationality
Links
Comments

Notes
Professional Name: best porn name that we here at VEF prefer.
Aliases: only important and widely used Aliases should be listed, e.g. Ramona Kassel for Desiree Barclay or Denise Remplace for Dagmar Lost.
Real Name: deleted.
Place of Birth: deleted. No need for this and Nationality.
Nationality: this could contain Country data in fact, e.g. USA or UK or Hungary, not American or British or Hungarian. Whichever is chosen, Nationality is a good title because first letter of each field title is different. Could use shorthand country codes to save space, similar to mag series codes.
Links: field added for http://... links, with multiple links separated by semi-colons. Other categories would benefit from having a Links field, but it may be better to add Links data in the future to avoid clutter. In other words, subsets without Links could be used for the time being.

All comments welcome. :)

this looks comprehensive enough for me.

in relation to nationality i've been using as best to my recollection the shortening of country names as used in international sporting events eg HUN, CZE, USA, RUS, etc.
the only exception to this has been UK, which should be 'GBR' i guess. it would keep them all at 3 letters each.

I would say that the end of 1983 (publication date of the original mag series) would be an appropriate cut-off point. You will hardly find a corresponding loop to stories published later than 1983.

But that doesn't resolve the problem concerning unknown model names.

-> 1984 = CC Classic
1984 -> = CC Model (?)

I would say as a rule of thumb <- 1984 a name from within the mag should be used if no other is forthcoming and 1984 -> we should continue looking for the professional name while we are still finding them regularly, and think again when we hit a brick wall.

hopefully dales won't run out of steam...

My 2 cents
ID: best porn name that we here at VEF prefer, if we are in agreement in the first place then this should rarely if ever change, obviously if it is changed then all other csv's linking to the model need to be updated. In many cases this will be the same as Professional Name: but need not be.
Professional Name: A widely accepted name for the model, this may change if a better name is found.
For example, ID: Barbara (CC Classic) Professional Name: 'Tina(16)'@EGAFD Aliases: Barbara (CC Classic)
If a film listing or better name is found then that name can replace the Professional Name, 'Tina(16)'@EGAFD can be added to the Aliases, but her ID will remain as Barbara (CC Classic)

Aliases: Maria Szolontai (now there's a girl with an identity crisis) is a perfect example of why I think all known aliases should be listed, if someone ID'ng a model knows she appeared in a film as XYZ then having the alias XYZ listed will help them locate the model ID that we are using more readily and hopefully avoid/reduce the instances of models being listed multiple times under different names

Nationality: I think Rob4's suggestion to use 3-letter codes for the nationality is good one.
As we've discussed previously though nationality is a tricky one (as opposed to Place of birth), for example if an actress was born in HUN, worked firstly in GBR before becoming a USA national and continuing her career there, then what is her nationality?

As for distinguishing between (CC Classic) or (CC Model), whatever you choose please include them! Although an actress may not have appeared in film and may not be officially recognised outside VEF including them is useful for aiding in cross-referencing mags film photo sets and playing cards.
Personally I would refer to all made up names simply as Barbara* or 'Barbara' @VEF.

To digress, Is the shoot name for a model that appears in the set info
http://thumbnails20.imagebam.com/558...c355813103.gif
always the same as what appears in the original mag strory? and, if different which should be listed?

Finally, I think this all this disccuion can't be helping those actually ID'ng models and maintaining the csv's (Sorry about this post!)
Perhaps a Mod or someone overseeing these projects could start a dissusion thread (feel free to move/delete this post)
BB

is this thread also going to be the discussion thread for agreeing names... or just the format of the information?

I think we should use this thread for thinks like format, structure, ... discussions.
The discussions about the models should be kept in to other thread imo.

CC data in CSV format reminder
 

I have not forgotten about renaming the the definitive kk identification thread [reorganizing] thread to CC data in CSV format.

There is lot of important info in that thread, info which is hard to find with the existing name. However, before the renaming takes place, I think a couple of extra CSV lists should be created and slight changes made to a few of the existing lists. (Some new lists could wait until after the renaming.)

Details of some of the proposed changes are in the next post, but here is a summary:

Rename existing .A to .PA (for Photoset Actor)
Rename existing .P to .PS (for Photoset Story)

Create new .SA Shoot Actor using info in .PA, .PS, .RA, .RS, .RT
Create new .A Actor using info in .SA
.

.A Actor CSV format
 

Here are my latest thoughts about the .A Actor category. I have tried to take on board comments about my earlier proposals. The .A category is intended to be a list of actors who perform in mags, films and videos from CC and other companies. Therefore it is not CC-specific.

The proposed CSV format is below. Some previous fields have been deleted and these are not mentioned.

Actor
Type
Gender
Name
AKA (Also Known As)
Date of birth
Country of birth
Links
Comments

Notes
Type: .A
Gender: single-letter code for gender, F = female or M = male or S = shemale
Name: professional / porn name of actor that we here at VEF think is the best. If the professional name is unknown, a Shoot Actor Alias should be used (see .SA Shoot Actor below). If actor is unnamed in all of his or her shoots, an ID based on the earliest Shoot ID should be used (please see .SA again).
AKA: other porn name(s) by which actor is known, with multiple names separated by ;
Date of birth: format is D Mon Year, where D = number of day in month
Country of birth: three letter upper-case code for country (exact code to be agreed)
Links: website link(s), with multiple links separated by ;

Discussion
As Real Name has been deleted, Professional Name can be changed to just Name without any confusion arising. Aliases has been changed to AKA to avoid confusion with Shoot Actor Alias (see post 19 below). Nationality has been changed to Country of birth.

All comments welcome. :)

.SA Shoot Actor CSV format
 

The proposed Shoot Actor category is explained below.

Shoot Actor
Type
Shoot
Gender
Number
Alias
Name
Sex Action
Links
Comments

Notes
Type: .SA
Gender: single-letter code for gender, F = female or M = male or S = shemale
Number: number of female/male/shemale in shoot. 1 for first, 2 for second, etc.
Alias: alias name given to actor in this shoot, enclosed by single-quote character (ASCII character 39 decimal), e.g. 'Barbara'
Name: porn name of actor, copied from Actor Name (in .A Actor list)
Sex Action: codes for sex action performed by actor with semi-colon separator, e.g. A;DP
Links: website link(s), with multiple links separated by ;
Comments: could include distinctive features relating to this actor that help with identification, such as physical appearance and clothing.

Discussion
Number is 1 in magazine story for actor who appears first as viewed from top to bottom and left to right (excluding cover pics). Shoot Name has been changed to Alias to avoid confusion with Name. So that users can tell the difference instantly between Alias and Name, Alias should have the single-quote character ' at the start and end, e.g. 'Barbara' (single-quote because double-quote " cannot be used.) Name could be the same as Alias if actor's porn name is unknown and Alias is the best known alias. For an actor with unknown Name who never has an Alias, for example in an early mag with no text, Name should be Shoot.Gender.Number from the actor's earliest known shoot. (N.B. This Name info applies more to .A Actor from which Name is copied.) Action has been changed back to Sex Action.

All comments welcome. :)

country codes
 

i'm not too keen on the 2 letter country codes. many of them are not easily recognisable at first glance and people would have to refer to the master list all the time. i think the sporting event 3 letter codes are much easier on the eye.
its probably not that much of a problem for these lists as most of the nationalities in cc are well known e.g. HU (HUN), DE (GER), etc. but i can see this format being adopted by future id projects, which may become confusing when you have something like HR for Croatia and UA for Ukraine.

Re: country codes
 

I accept the point about Croatia and Ukraine and I've deleted the two-letter codes from my post.

The IOC and other three-letter codes aren't perfect, IMO. If GER then why not HOL? NED and ESP but not DEU doesn't seem very fair on die Deutschen. Also why ROU when ROM would be better for everyone?

I'm not too bothered whether it's two or three letters, but we need to decide on a code and stick to it. Here are some links:

Wiki Country Codes
from which
ISO two-letter codes
ISO three letter codes
International Olympic Committee codes
FIFA codes

I think EU or EUR for European (but exact country unknown) would be useful.

By the look of it none of the codes is really consistent. Have a look at Comparison of IOC, FIFA, and ISO 3166 country codes. Personally, I tend to prefer the FIFA codes.

Discussion added to posts 18 .A Actor and 19 .SA Shoot Actor.

Comments welcome.

They are very similar, but I prefer IOC codes because LAT makes more sense than LVA and the United Kingdom is not blank.

There is no reason why we have to keep rigidly to one code. We could use ISO code GRL for 'Mikki' from Greenland and, as mentioned before, add EUR for Europe (country unknown). Think of this as extending the internet domain code EU to three letters.

I forgot to say that a lot of data for the new .SA list can be copied from the existing .A (soon to be .PA I hope) and .RA lists, so it should not take too much time to create.

I think .SA is more important than either .PA or .RA because .SA connects the actors directly with the original shoot. When .SA exists, .PA and .RA are no longer vital. All their data and more can be found in the .SA list.
.

That's a good point, since GBR is no FIFA member but the football associations of England, Northern Ireland, Scotland, and Wales. :D

i like it when porn and footie are in harmony...

Exactly, when the magazine story for a set is known then the .PA and .RA entry is redundant! The only real pupose of .PA & .RA as I see it is to aid those id'ng actors who are working through the photo sets and scans to save them having to cross reference back to the .SA file. Of course it makes more work for those maintaining the lists to ensure the info is consistent between the lists.

I think it is a good idea to have one 'master' list but it was very useful in the past to combine the entries with sheets to get the 'who is who' i.e. if there is more than one girl in a set...
Another variant could be to add a little overview or browser pic to that post in the flow of the thread where the new entries are posted. This could also be useful due to the reason that not everybody got/knows every set.

How shall we handle...
- sets without identified mags
- the 500s ( are also not separated from the .PS )


( I need a little time to change the .P to .PS )

Hi ICU
I've been discussing the official sets with Al Gebra and we were wondering why .ps does not distinguish between smu and U image sets even though the number of pics does vary?

also .ps lists 1296b as having 27 pics which does not match either smu or U1296b

Hi,
I think it was in relation to this former discussion in 2008 when we started with the origin set titles and converted them to chronological order.

We also spoke about the U... sets that time, but sorry I do not remember where. I am not sure, but I think it was something with a source CSV ?

Of course at the moment there is no .S Shoot info which to me should have preceeded .SA Shoot Actors. To complicate things, magazine stories, film stories, and official set images have and N to N relationship with shoots. For example: Stories such as "Teenage Photo Gallery", "Porno Album", "Color Climax Album" typically have images from multiple shoots. The loop "Sweet Memories" has footage from the magazine stories "Dice, Dicks And An Eager Cunt" and "Candle Delight". cc82x has images from Educating Tina and Maid In Heaven.

Up until know I had simply haddled these multiple shoot stories with comments, however I am currently in the process of restructuring my data. but I digress..

To answer your question a Shoot as I see it is a distinct entity from the magazines, films or image sets it appears in. Thus a .S and .SA listing is possible even though the magazine story is unknown. However this explanation is not entirely consistent with how fannatastic has set up .SA.

Map reference location
 

Might be an idea to put letters down the vertical axis of the ID contact sheet, i.e.:-

A
B
C
D
E

and put numbers along the horizontal axis :-


1 2 3 4 5 6 7

so models could be identified by grid square, for example, LATIN 3-D7 (meaning Latin sheet 3, fourth row down,seventh from the left).
Might make it a bit easier to keep track.
Could be used in addition to existing ident numbers and part names.


Using this system I think LATIN 2-D5 (Zoe 3) could be Michelle Monaghan.

on which sheet thread are you referring to?

i guess, the problem with your idea is that this board doesn't offer the tools to create such a layout. you need something like tables for this issue.

Sorry for entering this thread so late in the piece, but:
When designing a database where the potential primary key is not immutable, one should instead create a surrogate primary key field, e.g. numeric.

Benefit: other tables linking to this one can then rely upon that primary key field. Allows all model names/ID to be altered as/when desired. Also allows different models with the same name, i.e. "Tina" or whatever is not a very good choice for primary key. NB, would need additional info. to distinguish this "Tina" from another of the same name, e.g. photo/nationality/filmography/whatever.

Cost: slightly greater complication to data structure, as would have something like:

modelKey [primary key, numeric, unique]
ID [agreed best name at VEF]
...

A normalised database, as opposed to a simple CSV, would have a related table of model names/aliases, and the ID field would be a foreign key pointing to whichever was the agreed best name:

Models table:
modelKey [primary key, numeric, unique]
ID [foreign key, corresp. nameKey selected for this model, perhaps null if undecided?]
Nationality
...

Names table:
nameKey [primary key, numeric, unique]
modelKey [foreign key to Models table]
name [string]

"Aliases" would be a lookup query/join based on Names with corresp. modelKey as their FK.

Sorry, my SQL is getting rust through lack of use.

Late edit:
A Names table would, however, only be useful if other data were being associated with those individual names/aliases.

Hi,
I built a few (mag source based) test ID Sheets referring to the CSV .SA
The left sheet is ( due to a little more input ) an example for the kind of
floating layout to filter infos without the need to open some or all sheets.

I think this is a better way to prevent from double datas in the CSV .RA
with all its parts and it would make it easier and clear.


http://img219.imagevenue.com/loc950/..._123_950lo.jpg http://img226.imagevenue.com/loc18/t...1_123_18lo.jpg http://img254.imagevenue.com/loc355/..._123_355lo.jpg


I can offer to maintain CSV .SA.

An example for female + male Ids in one ID sheet

http://img134.imagevenue.com/loc192/..._123_192lo.jpg

.SA, AS61.3, F, 1, 'Myriam', Lynn Armitage, , ,
.SA, AS61.3, M, 1, , Jean-Pierre Armand, , , ,
.SA, AS61.3, M, 2, , Andre Kay, , , ,


VEF Scene Pairings ( Starting with the male ID, no Requests ) could be removed

Please do, icu, thanks! :)

When there are multiple females or males in a story, the first one to appear as viewed from left to right and top to bottom is 1.

* * * * * * * * * *

I think the .SA list is not that easy to find and the same applies to other CSV lists, such as .MS and .FS.

Thanks fannatastic :)


This is an example of a .SA visualization ( with some new entries ) for AS only after my first run...

Inside the sheets I sort each gender in a group by name and start printing from left with the females (in alphabetical order : F, M, T).

The backround switches from light green to light blue to separate the stories visual in groups.

I think it will be needed to split the ID sheet post and CSV du to the size that I am expecting.

I had to build the thumbs from serveral sources, they may differ to the originals - but I try my best ;)



http://img212.imagevenue.com/loc944/..._123_944lo.jpg http://img235.imagevenue.com/loc38/t...1_123_38lo.jpg http://img230.imagevenue.com/loc393/..._123_393lo.jpg
http://img208.imagevenue.com/loc232/..._123_232lo.jpg http://img125.imagevenue.com/loc247/..._123_247lo.jpg http://img248.imagevenue.com/loc165/..._123_165lo.jpg
http://img179.imagevenue.com/loc445/..._123_445lo.jpg http://img158.imagevenue.com/loc512/..._123_512lo.jpg http://img258.imagevenue.com/loc21/t...8_123_21lo.jpg
http://img217.imagevenue.com/loc892/..._123_892lo.jpg http://img158.imagevenue.com/loc370/..._123_370lo.jpg http://img135.imagevenue.com/loc100/..._123_100lo.jpg
http://img292.imagevenue.com/loc595/..._123_595lo.jpg http://img212.imagevenue.com/loc1013...123_1013lo.jpg http://img222.imagevenue.com/loc807/..._123_807lo.jpg
http://img158.imagevenue.com/loc30/t...5_123_30lo.jpg http://img21.imagevenue.com/loc472/t..._123_472lo.jpg

I added a few lines of the csv to this post as an example for a search similar to a scene pairing.
(1. 'search forum', 2. 'search this thread' with copied text from the CSV lines below.
Due to the structure of the forum the result appears most times at the top of the list)
_____________________________________________


Hi,
if you found to this post via a search function then you may also find some infos at the ID Sheets
to get a mag source or ID


...
.SA, AS68.1, F, 1, '?', Tiffany Storm, , , @iafd
.SA, AS68.1, M, 1, , Troy Tannier, , ,
.SA, AS68.1, M, 2, , Frank James, , ,
.SA, AS68.2, F, 1, 'Petra', ?, , ,
.SA, AS68.3, F, 1, '?', Christine Marlberg, , ,
.SA, AS68.3, M, 1, , Gerard Luig, , , ,@egafd
.SA, AS68.3, M, 2, , Rex Morrison, , ,

.SA, AS69.1, F, 1, '?', Ona Zee, , ,
.SA, AS69.1, M, 1, , Ray Victory, , ,
.SA, AS69.2, F, 1, 'Claudine', Helene Chevalier, , , @egafd
.SA, AS69.2, M, 1, , Alain L'yle, , ,
.SA, AS69.2, M, 2, , Constantin Acatrinei, , ,
.SA, AS69.3, F, 1, 'Magda', Molly O'Brien, , ,
.SA, AS69.3, F, 2, 'Renate', Biggi Mondi, , ,
.SA, AS69.3, M, 1, , Roy Hunter, , ,

.SA, AS70.1, F, 1, 'Theresa', Fallon, , ,
.SA, AS70.1, M, 1, , Blake Palmer, , ,
.SA, AS70.1, M, 2, , Scott Irish, , ,
.SA, AS70.2, F, 1, 'Jacqueline', Marie-Christine Covi, , ,
.SA, AS70.2, M, 1, , Yves Baillat, , ,
.SA, AS70.3, F, 1, 'Sylvie', Sophie Fibelle, , ,

.SA, AS71.1, F, 1, 'Nicole', Chantal Trobert, , ,
.SA, AS71.1, M, 1, , Christoph Clark, , ,
.SA, AS71.1, M, 2, , Andre Kay, , ,
.SA, AS71.2, F, 1, 'Patricia', 'Gabi', , , @egafd
.SA, AS71.2, M, 1, , Rally Van Essen, , , @iafd
.SA, AS71.3, F, 1, 'Mathilde', Astrid Pils, , ,
...